The Gana/Gomes partnership

[Kever10]

Not really. The way we currently play, his energy and pressing and tackling is key to us winning it back.

It showed the other day, albeit against an excellent team.

Davies could come in over Xmas next to Gomes and do really well. I hope he does. But it doesn't mean Gana wouldn't be missed or that Davies would bring what Gana does. And if Gomes is having to do that job - which he hasn't got the pace for - then it's a waste of what he's good at.

No, I'm sorry, you said we CANNOT win the ball back without him. Not that we don't, or haven't, or might not, but CANNOT. It's absolute nonsense. Anyone who takes up the space in midfield will do the role and win back the ball as and when they can. They might not make as many tackles or interceptions as Gueye, but it's not like these misleading stats are serving us well anyway, or we would be a much stronger side than we currently are.

Saying we missed him on Saturday, against the best team in the league, is a joke. You can't know that any more than me saying he would've done nothing. What I will say, is if he struggled against Newcastle and Watford at home, he most likely wouldn't have made a difference against Man City away. Would he have ran around a lot? Sure. Would he have improved our overall possession of the ball? Probably not.

 

[Kever10]

Which is fine. ON the ball, Doucoure is definitely an upgrade, and you're right that his strength/power is an asset.

Off the ball, we'd lose something. But, a player like Doucoure - or an Ndombele or that type - would at least mean the drop off isn't too big.

But Gana is incredibly undervalued by far too many, which is mental considering when he's not in the side we literally have to change the way we play.

You literally can't win games off the ball. You can lose them, but you can't win them.

Give me someone who makes a difference when we have it any day.

 

[BlueToff]

You literally can't win games off the ball. You can lose them, but you can't win them.

Give me someone who makes a difference when we have it any day.

I mean what utter nonsense that is though.It's a crucial part of the modern game now.

So City's ability to win the ball back within about 2 seconds of losing it - and having 5 players around the ball within seconds as well - is of no factor at all in them winning the league last season.

Gana does make a difference. Massively. It's proved by the fact we're dreadful when he doesn't play. Doesn't mean he's perfect, or that he can't be improved on, but if you can't see it then I've got little chance of persuading you otherwise since it's so obvious.

 

[Nymzee]

I mean what utter nonsense that is though.It's a crucial part of the modern game now.

So City's ability to win the ball back within about 2 seconds of losing it - and having 5 players around the ball within seconds as well - is of no factor at all in them winning the league last season.

Gana does make a difference. Massively. It's proved by the fact we're dreadful when he doesn't play. Doesn't mean he's perfect, or that he can't be improved on, but if you can't see it then I've got little chance of persuading you otherwise since it's so obvious.

Doesn't really make much sense does it; you need to be good off the ball to even get a chance of making a difference on the ball.

 

[BlueToff]

No, I'm sorry, you said we CANNOT win the ball back without him. Not that we don't, or haven't, or might not, but CANNOT. It's absolute nonsense. Anyone who takes up the space in midfield will do the role and win back the ball as and when they can. They might not make as many tackles or interceptions as Gueye, but it's not like these misleading stats are serving us well anyway, or we would be a much stronger side than we currently are.

Saying we missed him on Saturday, against the best team in the league, is a joke. You can't know that any more than me saying he would've done nothing. What I will say, is if he struggled against Newcastle and Watford at home, he most likely wouldn't have made a difference against Man City away. Would he have ran around a lot? Sure. Would he have improved our overall possession of the ball? Probably not.

I didn't say anything of the sort, you're on about the wrong poster.

And yes, we did miss him on Saturday. I didn't say we would have won if he'd have played, but he'd have helped shield the back five.

He helps press us up the pitch with his energy and his pace. He wasn't great against N'Castle or Watford, but neither were the others. Your logic that 'well he didn't play well against Newcastle so he can't play well against City' is a bit weird...

He's the best at what he does in our squad. Whether we need that in every game is up for debate but, given how Silva currently wants us to play, we do need that player in there. And the player that we have for that role is Gana, the others aren't up to the same level or they're simply not the same type of player.

 

[BlueToff]

Doesn't really make much sense does it; you need to be good off the ball to even get a chance of making a difference on the ball.

It's baffled me.

Might as well just go with a team of slow number 10s and play boss togger... Oh, wait.

 

[Nymzee]

It's baffled me.

Might as well just go with a team of slow number 10s and play boss togger... Oh, wait.

Good players do not like being pressed for 90 minutes.

 

[BlueToff]

Good players do not like being pressed for 90 minutes.

Perfect example for me is Gomes the other day.

On the ball he's excellent and, generally, his work off the ball is good. But he isn't quick, he doesn't get around the pitch.

Whether Gana had been fit or not the other day, I am not for one second suggesting that we'd have controlled midfield. But without him, or even a player who could play in a similar, energetic role (Davies/McCarthy) we had nobody to do the legwork.

Yes, Gylfi and Gomes both worked hard, but they're both at their best on the ball. Gomes was having to do the role of Gana and Gylfi was having to play the role of driving it forward. We looked far better when we switched to a 4 and then had Davies popping about. Even if it was just in the closing stages.

 

[Nymzee]

Perfect example for me is Gomes the other day.

On the ball he's excellent and, generally, his work off the ball is good. But he isn't quick, he doesn't get around the pitch.

Whether Gana had been fit or not the other day, I am not for one second suggesting that we'd have controlled midfield. But without him, or even a player who could play in a similar, energetic role (Davies/McCarthy) we had nobody to do the legwork.

Yes, Gylfi and Gomes both worked hard, but they're both at their best on the ball. Gomes was having to do the role of Gana and Gylfi was having to play the role of driving it forward. We looked far better when we switched to a 4 and then had Davies popping about. Even if it was just in the closing stages.

I'd say having a Gana/Beni type on the pitch vs teams like City would increase the amount of counter-attacks we could have.

 

[Kever10]

I didn't say anything of the sort, you're on about the wrong poster.

And yes, we did miss him on Saturday. I didn't say we would have won if he'd have played, but he'd have helped shield the back five.

He helps press us up the pitch with his energy and his pace. He wasn't great against N'Castle or Watford, but neither were the others. Your logic that 'well he didn't play well against Newcastle so he can't play well against City' is a bit weird...

He's the best at what he does in our squad. Whether we need that in every game is up for debate but, given how Silva currently wants us to play, we do need that player in there. And the player that we have for that role is Gana, the others aren't up to the same level or they're simply not the same type of player.

Apologies, you didn't actually say it, you just defended the point I refuted in your comment.

He might be the best at what he does in the squad, but its debatable whether that makes us, or any other team he plays in, a better team. Like I have said on many occasions, if he was half as good or important as some would have you believe, we would be a far superior team. He is a very limited average player, with top stats in areas that are most definitely not linked to top sides.

 

[Kever10]

I mean what utter nonsense that is though.It's a crucial part of the modern game now.

So City's ability to win the ball back within about 2 seconds of losing it - and having 5 players around the ball within seconds as well - is of no factor at all in them winning the league last season.

Gana does make a difference. Massively. It's proved by the fact we're dreadful when he doesn't play. Doesn't mean he's perfect, or that he can't be improved on, but if you can't see it then I've got little chance of persuading you otherwise since it's so obvious.

It's not nonsense though is it. You use man City as an example because they win the ball back so quick, so why do they not have anyone with the stats of Gueye? Because they don't lose the ball as often in the 1st place, and they are better on the ball.

You say if I can't see it you have little chance of proving me otherwise. Well it goes both ways I'm afraid, and you will continue to be blinded by his stats that make you believe he is invaluable. I just think he is hugely overrated and I've yet to be convinced otherwise.

 

[messymascot]

Where we are at the moment which is best of the rest what Gueye is good at is important. If we get amongst that top 6 the amount of games we will need a player like Gueye will decrease. Hopefully Baningime goes out on loan and improves enough to take Gueyes place in the squad in 18 months or maybe the year after. However someone needs to work on his passing so he is a better passer I would say Gueye and Baningime are 9/10 on tackling and 6/10 passing. I would prefer the replacement to be 8/10 tackling and 7/10 passing so both 15/20 but new player slightly better balanced. Hopefully one or two out of Baningime, Davies and Williams can make it as it would save us a fortune and show young players we are tge team to join.

 

[BlueToff]

It's not nonsense though is it. You use man City as an example because they win the ball back so quick, so why do they not have anyone with the stats of Gueye? Because they don't lose the ball as often in the 1st place, and they are better on the ball.

You say if I can't see it you have little chance of proving me otherwise. Well it goes both ways I'm afraid, and you will continue to be blinded by his stats that make you believe he is invaluable. I just think he is hugely overrated and I've yet to be convinced otherwise.

But that's not Gueye's fault?

I'm not blinded by his stats. I see us struggle in certain aspects when Gana isn't in the team. The stats then back that up, which is what stats should be used for...

I'm not saying he is a brilliant passer. I'm not saying we can't look to improve, because there's nobody in the team that we couldn't improve on.

But he's excellent at what he does and at the moment that's key to how we play.

Also, Chelsea signed Kante on the back of him being the top tackler in the league. If he was still at Leicester, he'd still probably be the top tackler. It wouldn't make him any less of a player...

 

[Blue Roo]

Going to go off on a bit of tangent.
Discussion in this thread should be just as much about Gylfi's role and value.

I'm not a fan of the 2-3-1 in this current league.
We don't have players of a particular ilk and quality for it to be really successful.
And if you don't you are really consigining your DMs to protecting your CBs - teams like this really struggle to get the four in front of them to be effective in possession for any length of time, and can be camped in their own half for long periods.

Its not a good formation for a side that sits near the top of tier 2. Maybe dangling rather than 'sits' is a more apt term.
There are no certainties in the transfer window, to move from struggling to successful. Even United can't buy their way out.

Looking at Gomes' touch map over the season tells you he is looking and asked to be everywhere; continually setting up or retrieving and switching play. Gana's role then is to position himself for the transition out of possession, to breakdown play at the point the opposition are trying to find a way out. That all seems well and good and has worked well in some games, being well understood and supported by the back four.

Gana is exceptional in this area of the game. In this there is little doubt, he is in the top three or four players in the league.
But how does he effect Gomes and the four players in front of him - in possession and in controlling the game?

Gana's weaknesses are as an attacking threat - lack of vision and creativity, dribbling around players, a pin-point and weighted pass and as a goal threat. Gomes simply doesn't have someone to work with to continue the vision and creativity while keeping possession (except Sig).
Often when Gana gets the ball in attacking positions the impetus is lost. Often when he gets the ball the anxiety goes up a notch. Its in stark contrast to when the balls at Gomes feet.

Its also in stark contrast to the way Doucoure played against us.

This does a number of things, but probably most significant is not giving Gomes the time to make creative runs off the ball. He rarely allows himself to do this because of Gana's limitations.
Consequently, it results in the other forward's movements being easier to read by the opposition. But this is common problem in this type of formation anyway.

Confounding this is Gylfi being advanced of these two most of the time. He is not in the mould of Modric, Erikssen, Silva.
If there was a player like this it would go a long way to cancelling out issues with Gana. Can Everton attract such a player at this point?
Probably not. But believe we don't need one.

I don't rate Gylfi as a classic no.10, but as a box-to box, where defensive duties, reading of the game and delayed attacking runs are much more important, I think he gives the team much more balance. He's got the diesel and heart while at 29 he's got the experience for it while not needing to get forward at every opportunity. Basically it allows Gomes to play a freer role. If you add Doucoure into Gana's position in a 3 man midfield you start to deal with a lot of problems.

For example, Gomes playing the lines allows players like Lookman and Rico to make more creative runs in the box more, where they have the touch and skill to do something with it.
Or Gomes, Digne and Lookman on the left - Lookman making the inside run, Gylfi lat run into box, DCL target, Rico far post, Doucoure, Coleman sweep and link.

Gylfi is one of the most threating players coming from an unmarked position. I'd be getting him to sit more and wait for his moments.
So midfield three all day. He's not a 10 but he's to good to leave out.

Its about time we started making oppositions nervous with when we have the ball, not the other way round.

 

[RomanReigns]

I'd like to see a Gomes / Doucoure partnership