Current Affairs The Conservative Party

[chrismpw]

You seriously think the government lied about Johnson being in intensive care?

Not necessarily - but it did give him a reason to be out of the limelight after fecking up massively with the handling - so his illness was hugely convenient and drew sympathy so you must see there would be a motive to fabricate.

Oh and one thing the uk is still world class at - is closing ranks and hiding the truth/pulling the wool over peoples' eyes - so they also have the capability - especially with a complicit media.

So motive and means - yes. Whether they actually did it - I don't know. If you know then you must have been there watching over him.

 

[Harryflashman]

Now now. Your supposed to bend the knee, and be thankful you are being addressed and led by the great big blond pillock.

I can reconcile why people brought in to Cameron May, Christ even Blair. But this mess of a human who is our PM, just makes me smirk every time I bring myself to listen to him.

He is known liar, noone can legally challenge you on it anywhere, and people are having debate on his honesty... It anit kool aid it's Brawndo they are drinking.

Without going into this medical issues other than to say it’s certainly reasonable to assume from various statements or accounts they’ve been less than truthful . I do think The bloke has been unwell , I’ve no idea to what extent but many of the account seem mutually exclusive so who knows what’s occurred .

Let’s be clear though the mans a liar , before we get into whataboutery the man has been sacked from jobs for being just that a liar . So if you lie and are sacked from your job as a journalist for being a liar and you’re sacked from the shadow cabinet for being a liar then make no bones about it you’re a liar .

 

[PhilM]

Not necessarily - but it did give him a reason to be out of the limelight after fecking up massively with the handling - so his illness was hugely convenient and drew sympathy so you must see there would be a motive to fabricate.

Oh and one thing the uk is still world class at - is closing ranks and hiding the truth/pulling the wool over peoples' eyes - so they also have the capability - especially with a complicit media.

So motive and means - yes. Whether they actually did it - I don't know. If you know then you must have been there watching over him.

Would this not require the consensus of a large number of NHS staff who either witnessed Johnson in hospital (ICU) or factually aware of his presence there?

In this period of real stress and strain on the NHS, can you genuinely see all of these people (NHS staff) holding ranks and maintaining the fabrication?

Why would it be in their interest? Would it not have reached the press by now? I'm sure that there'll have been numerous people who'd be happy to disclose.

He's a pretty odious individual and a liar, but that doesn't automatically mean that this is a lie. If people think it is, well they perhaps need to be a bit more objective.

 

[chrismpw]

Would this not require the consensus of a large number of NHS staff who either witnessed Johnson in hospital (ICU) or factually aware of his presence there?

In this period of real stress and strain on the NHS, can you genuinely see all of these people (NHS staff) holding ranks and maintaining the fabrication?

Why would it be in their interest? Would it not have reached the press by now? I'm sure that there'll have been numerous people who'd be happy to disclose.

He's a pretty odious individual and a liar, but that doesn't automatically mean that this is a lie. If people think it is, well they perhaps need to be a bit more objective.

There are ways and means. I expect he wasnt in a ward with the riff raff. All you need is his private physician and a couple if overseas nurses and porters who's visas might be ready for renewal.

Or maybe just a body double.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Without going into this medical issues other than to say it’s certainly reasonable to assume from various statements or accounts they’ve been less than truthful . I do think The bloke has been unwell , I’ve no idea to what extent but many of the account seem mutually exclusive so who knows what’s occurred .

Let’s be clear though the mans a liar , before we get into whataboutery the man has been sacked from jobs for being just that a liar . So if you lie and are sacked from your job as a journalist for being a liar and your sacked from the shadow cabinet for being a liar then make no bones about it you’re a liar .

Until recently it used to be a serious accusation to make against any PM being a liar, would often lead to reprimand... Now some are having a debate on the spectrum of lies that is acceptable.

 

[tsubaki]

Would this not require the consensus of a large number of NHS staff who either witnessed Johnson in hospital (ICU) or factually aware of his presence there?

In this period of real stress and strain on the NHS, can you genuinely see all of these people (NHS staff) holding ranks and maintaining the fabrication?

Why would it be in their interest? Would it not have reached the press by now? I'm sure that there'll have been numerous people who'd be happy to disclose.

He's a pretty odious individual and a liar, but that doesn't automatically mean that this is a lie. If people think it is, well they perhaps need to be a bit more objective.

TBF a lot of that is assumption- I am not saying the idea he wasn’t ill is true (as said above I think the lie here was them saying repeatedly that he was fine), but the idea that the NHS staff would leak and that the Press would report it anyway is extremely questionable.

You can see the truth of that by looking at how the row he had with Carrie was reported. Did you at any stage see one of the attending cops get interviewed, even as an anonymous source?

Of course those cops would have faced severe, life-ruining consequences for leaking it (as would the NHS staff) and the media weren’t interested anyway (the pro-Boris rags actually going after the person who did talk to a paper). So the truth of what happened that night is never known (not that I think there was anything other than a verbal argument).

 

[PhilM]

TBF a lot of that is assumption- I am not saying the idea he wasn’t ill is true (as said above I think the lie here was them saying repeatedly that he was fine), but the idea that the NHS staff would leak and that the Press would report it anyway is extremely questionable.

You can see the truth of that by looking at how the row he had with Carrie was reported. Did you at any stage see one of the attending cops get interviewed, even as an anonymous source?

Of course those cops would have faced severe, life-ruining consequences for leaking it (as would the NHS staff) and the media weren’t interested anyway (the pro-Boris rags actually going after the person who did talk to a paper). So the truth of what happened that night is never known (not that I think there was anything other than a verbal argument).

This part is the crux of how the two situations are (rightly or wrongly) different because we are the midst of a crisis so the media really would be interested.

And yes they are assumptions, but I'm basing it partly on experience. Compare the number of people involved in a police investigation and an NHS hospital.

Now not all hospital staff will be involved, but you've got a chain of people and services who who you would suspect would be involved, directly or indirectly.

You also have to consider rules, procedures and allegiances for all those people, all of which would need to maintain the pretence. Compare the likelihoods!

On how many occasions have you known lies to come out because the bond between those involved breaks down? It's the biggest cause, so allegiance is vital.

Add to that, the 'supposed' (if it's fake) care staff have been publicly acknowledged, so would it be unrealistic that the press may have done some digging on them?

If it was found that he wasn't in ICU, I suspect that the fall out would make the Profumo crisis or other sort of scandal looking tiny - shirking in a real crisis.

I'm not saying that they haven't been entirely truthful, but the idea that this a mass conspiracy (body doubles @chrismpw) just doesn't balance up for me.

With regards to the him being fine (your point), well I do suspect that he wasn't (again balance of evidence), but that's vastly different to him not being there at all.

Bascially, I think there's a spectrum to lies and deceit, and I don't measure them all on the same scale.

 

[chrismpw]

This part is the crux of how the two situations are (rightly or wrongly) different because we are the midst of a crisis so the media really would be interested.

And yes they are assumptions, but I'm basing it partly on experience. Compare the number of people involved in a police investigation and an NHS hospital.

Now not all hospital staff will be involved, but you've got a chain of people and services who who you would suspect would be involved, directly or indirectly.

You also have to consider rules, procedures and allegiances for all those people, all of which would need to maintain the pretence. Compare the likelihoods!

On how many occasions have you known lies to come out because the bond between those involved breaks down? It's the biggest cause, so allegiance is vital.

Add to that, the 'supposed' (if it's fake) care staff have been publicly acknowledged, so would it be unrealistic that the press may have done some digging on them?

If it was found that he wasn't in ICU, I suspect that the fall out would make the Profumo crisis or other sort of scandal looking tiny - shirking in a real crisis.

I'm not saying that they haven't been entirely truthful, but the idea that this a mass conspiracy (body doubles @chrismpw) just doesn't balance up for me.

With regards to the him being fine (your point), well I do suspect that he wasn't (again balance of evidence), but that's vastly different to him not being there at all.

Bascially, I think there's a spectrum to lies and deceit, and I don't measure them all on the same scale.

I'm not saying it was a conspiracy or untrue. I am suggesting it would take very little with the resources and experience of our government to pull it off.

All I'm saying is that there is very, very little I believe from government and media outlets any more.

I prefer to think about what motives people have for anything people do rather than listen to what I'm told they did, by those with vested interests.

Have we all forgotten the outcry a few months ago, when BJ started selecting what journalists and interviewers he allowed near him? The result - if you want to run your journalist career in politics - turn an eye away from news that paints the politician in a bad light.

 

[davek]

Not necessarily - but it did give him a reason to be out of the limelight after fecking up massively with the handling - so his illness was hugely convenient and drew sympathy so you must see there would be a motive to fabricate.

Oh and one thing the uk is still world class at - is closing ranks and hiding the truth/pulling the wool over peoples' eyes - so they also have the capability - especially with a complicit media.

So motive and means - yes. Whether they actually did it - I don't know. If you know then you must have been there watching over him.

Did you see the photos of him yesterday? He was carrying more weight than before he "fell ill". His voice was strong (a tell tale sign of anyone who actually has been through the mill is that their voice is weak for a long time thereafter, and he was bellowing across Downing St.).

He is a proven 'kin liar. He's used a 3/4 week period to duck out of accounting for an utter catastrophe of his making. Anyone who thinks that period wasn't used for that purpose need their heads feeling.

 

[tsubaki]

This part is the crux of how the two situations are (rightly or wrongly) different because we are the midst of a crisis so the media really would be interested.

And yes they are assumptions, but I'm basing it partly on experience. Compare the number of people involved in a police investigation and an NHS hospital.

Now not all hospital staff will be involved, but you've got a chain of people and services who who you would suspect would be involved, directly or indirectly.

You also have to consider rules, procedures and allegiances for all those people, all of which would need to maintain the pretence. Compare the likelihoods!

On how many occasions have you known lies to come out because the bond between those involved breaks down? It's the biggest cause, so allegiance is vital.

Add to that, the 'supposed' (if it's fake) care staff have been publicly acknowledged, so would it be unrealistic that the press may have done some digging on them?

If it was found that he wasn't in ICU, I suspect that the fall out would make the Profumo crisis or other sort of scandal looking tiny - shirking in a real crisis.

I'm not saying that they haven't been entirely truthful, but the idea that this a mass conspiracy (body doubles @chrismpw) just doesn't balance up for me.

With regards to the him being fine (your point), well I do suspect that he wasn't (again balance of evidence), but that's vastly different to him not being there at all.

Bascially, I think there's a spectrum to lies and deceit, and I don't measure them all on the same scale.

There is absolutely a spectrum of lies, but the problem is that these lie all the time and often obviously / outrageously. None have been as bad as Trump claiming he hadn’t been to a rally in months, but they aren’t that far behind him (remember the front page claims from Downing Street that they were going to investigate foreign influence on the “surrender bill”?).

I just wanted to emphasise that saying “but people would have spoke up” and “the Press would have reported it” is a bit of a massive assumption given what they would do (and have done) to people who speak up about less serious things than this, and how the media behave about him generally. There is no reason to believe the Press would properly report a scandal like that, or indeed any scandal involving him.

As I said above, I believe he was seriously ill (and was one of the people who said so at the time) but given that me, @Tubey and others were correctly pointing out that they were lying then I really don’t think they should be automatically believed now.

 

[peteblue]

If there wasn’t a lockdown, I’d suggest some of you guys need to get out more.......

 

[Aberblue]

While Boris Johnson is a proven liar, that doesn't mean that every single thing he says is automatically a lie. I doubt if anybody on this board has never said a lie in their lives.

 

[tsubaki]

While Boris Johnson is a proven liar, that doesn't mean that every single thing he says is automatically a lie. I doubt if anybody on this board has never said a lie in their lives.

hurrah for whataboutery!

 

[Tea_drinker]

Its definitely true that those from working class backgrounds who become tories in later life become ultra ultra tories.

 

[Tea_drinker]

While Boris Johnson is a proven liar, that doesn't mean that every single thing he says is automatically a lie. I doubt if anybody on this board has never said a lie in their lives.

We dont hold public office.