Current Affairs The "another stabbing in London" thread

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... which is another answer to a question that wasn't asked - though since you mention it, look at what happens to your graph when police strength in London is increased:

met%20police_0.jpg


A more relevant graph for this discussion is this one:

bn208_fig2.jpg


If you are really trying to pretend that taking nearly 20% out of the budget of the police for a city which has probably grown by a million people since 2010 hasn't had a demonstrable effect in the city, then you are having a laugh.
... which is another answer to a question that wasn't asked - though since you mention it, look at what happens to your graph when police strength in London is increased:

met%20police_0.jpg


A more relevant graph for this discussion is this one:

bn208_fig2.jpg


If you are really trying to pretend that taking nearly 20% out of the budget of the police for a city which has probably grown by a million people since 2010 hasn't had a demonstrable effect in the city, then you are having a laugh.

Yes, you didn't ask that question. You didn't question anything. You were ranting.

The graph I linked showed the murder rate in London over a period of time, including when Labour were in power. Look at the trend.

And no, at no time have I suggested that cuts have had zero effect on crime. It's you that is suggesting that parenting has zero effect on a childs upbringing.
 
Yes, you didn't ask that question. You didn't question anything. You were ranting.

The graph I linked showed the murder rate in London over a period of time, including when Labour were in power. Look at the trend.

And no, at no time have I suggested that cuts have had zero effect on crime. It's you that is suggesting that parenting has zero effect on a childs upbringing.

Yes, look at the trend. Labour increase police numbers and the murder rate goes down. This shouldn't be rocket science.

Also, would you like to point me to where I have said "parenting has zero effect on a childs upbringing"?
 
It's terrifying that young kids could kill another kid for no reason, with little or no thought of the consequences. Also it's doesn't seem that there is any sign of it getting any better. Sadiq Khan has been awful, while Trump is certainly not somebody who should be respected, getting involved in childish spats with the leader of the free world, when kids are getting murdered in the streets is disgraceful.
 
You can't go around saying "and what about the parents" when someone kills someone either though, especially when you know absolutely nothing about the lives of anyone involved in these horrors.

I mean take that 37 year old bloke who was arrested for murdering that pregnant woman. Do you blame his parents for that? (edit) Or the 29 year old bloke?
Completely different circumstances a 37 year old is mature enough to make his own decisions in life. A 17 year old confused young boy needs to be given some advice on life. Kids nowadays for all their technological knowledge are very naive. Sadly a lot of young men have no role models and also the feminised education system doesn't take into account young men are impulsive tribal creatures and speaking to a older male is the best way to warn them of the dangers of following a dangerous lifestyle. The rise of gangs in the African American community started at exactly the same time as the rise of fatherless families. Communities such as the East Asian community where they place huge significance on the role of elders have very few problems with criminality.
 
It's terrifying that young kids could kill another kid for no reason, with little or no thought of the consequences. Also it's doesn't seem that there is any sign of it getting any better. Sadiq Khan has been awful, while Trump is certainly not somebody who should be respected, getting involved in childish spats with the leader of the free world, when kids are getting murdered in the streets is disgraceful.

Why is it an either or thing?
 
Completely different circumstances a 37 year old is mature enough to make his own decisions in life. A 17 year old confused young boy needs to be given some advice on life. Kids nowadays for all their technological knowledge are very naive. Sadly a lot of young men have no role models and also the feminised education system doesn't take into account young men are impulsive tribal creatures and speaking to a older male is the best way to warn them of the dangers of following a dangerous lifestyle. The rise of gangs in the African American community started at exactly the same time as the rise of fatherless families. Communities such as the East Asian community where they place huge significance on the role of elders have very few problems with criminality.

This is a lot of assumptions, some of which are contradictory, bundled together and presented as fact though.

For a start, gangs have existed as far back as written history extends, and in almost every culture and society. There have been various forms of gang in London for at least thousand years (there is a good snapshot of 14th century crime at the Violence Research Centre's Medieval Murder Map).

They draw in all sorts - fatherless kids, those from stable but poor backgrounds, the feckless as well as kids who have followed their fathers / elders into the gang - and to suggest that people join them because of naivety / confusion / a lack of role models is to ignore the (actual) fact that most join for very clear and logical reasons (for gain, for status, for peers, for the lulz or for protection - or a mix of any of that). This is not a problem that started in the Black community as the result of the rise of fatherless families; its always been there and in every other community you can think of.

Secondly, and more importantly, gangs have always been fascinating to the public and press - both in terms of the stories they generate, and more importantly the discrimination that people can get away with when they mention "gang". If you look at any demonised group, the two almost constant things that the people doing the demonising use is that they are habitually criminal / form criminal gangs and that they go after "our" women (often by using devious means). Look at how the papers covered Chinese immigration in the 19th century, Italian immigration in the 19th and 20th centuries, Jewish immigration (or Jewish existance in Germany) in the 19th and 20th centuries, and Black immigration since Windrush (and the coverage of communities with a large Black population now). You could almost make the argument that the point at which the papers started to pay attention to the men of Pakistani descent getting convicted for sexual offences was when someone thought up the term grooming gang, which legitimised using the standard tropes again.

Of course if you do this for long enough - as with the perception of Black populations here and in the US, which has seen almost everything else that informs a persons identity (spiritual, cultural, educational, scientific, sporting, religious, and/or economic beliefs and achievements) stripped away by mainstream society so much that we as a society are told that the default setting for a young Black man is that of a gangster; to have escaped that life is so common a thing for Black politicians, sportsmen and public figures to say it has almost become a meme. Look at Cory Booker, who felt the need to live up to that perception that society has of him even though his parents were both IBM executives and he went to Stanford and Yale (and Oxford). Even Sajid Javid said something similar over here, despite being Home Secretary, having a brother who is a very senior cop and who has repeatedly paid tribute to what his mum and dad did for him.

In short we as a society have been conditioned to be tolerant and respectful, but we have also been conditioned to hear the word gang and feel that little bit more comfortable with the prejudices we all have. We should bear that in mind when we start to talk about gangs.
 
Because it's largely childish and pointless. Donald Trump is a product of the insanity of American politics, it's not something anybody in the UK can do about. His job is to deal with problems in London not in America.

His job is partly to promote the city. As John Cleese said the other week, it's one of the most cosmopolitan cities on earth, and all the better for it. He needs to stand up for values that are diametrically opposed to those of Trump, especially at a time when a great many London residents are politically disenfranchised and having policies with a huge impact on their lives imposed on them by a small cabal of geriatric Tory supporters who not only don't live in the city, but you suspect don't much care for the city either.
 
Because it's largely childish and pointless. Donald Trump is a product of the insanity of American politics, it's not something anybody in the UK can do about. His job is to deal with problems in London not in America.
The London Mayor role is no where near as involved as other Mayor's around the country. The Manchester mayor has far more responsibility than Londons, which is more figurehead in its role.
 
This is a lot of assumptions, some of which are contradictory, bundled together and presented as fact though.

For a start, gangs have existed as far back as written history extends, and in almost every culture and society. There have been various forms of gang in London for at least thousand years (there is a good snapshot of 14th century crime at the Violence Research Centre's Medieval Murder Map).

They draw in all sorts - fatherless kids, those from stable but poor backgrounds, the feckless as well as kids who have followed their fathers / elders into the gang - and to suggest that people join them because of naivety / confusion / a lack of role models is to ignore the (actual) fact that most join for very clear and logical reasons (for gain, for status, for peers, for the lulz or for protection - or a mix of any of that). This is not a problem that started in the Black community as the result of the rise of fatherless families; its always been there and in every other community you can think of.

Secondly, and more importantly, gangs have always been fascinating to the public and press - both in terms of the stories they generate, and more importantly the discrimination that people can get away with when they mention "gang". If you look at any demonised group, the two almost constant things that the people doing the demonising use is that they are habitually criminal / form criminal gangs and that they go after "our" women (often by using devious means). Look at how the papers covered Chinese immigration in the 19th century, Italian immigration in the 19th and 20th centuries, Jewish immigration (or Jewish existance in Germany) in the 19th and 20th centuries, and Black immigration since Windrush (and the coverage of communities with a large Black population now). You could almost make the argument that the point at which the papers started to pay attention to the men of Pakistani descent getting convicted for sexual offences was when someone thought up the term grooming gang, which legitimised using the standard tropes again.

Of course if you do this for long enough - as with the perception of Black populations here and in the US, which has seen almost everything else that informs a persons identity (spiritual, cultural, educational, scientific, sporting, religious, and/or economic beliefs and achievements) stripped away by mainstream society so much that we as a society are told that the default setting for a young Black man is that of a gangster; to have escaped that life is so common a thing for Black politicians, sportsmen and public figures to say it has almost become a meme. Look at Cory Booker, who felt the need to live up to that perception that society has of him even though his parents were both IBM executives and he went to Stanford and Yale (and Oxford). Even Sajid Javid said something similar over here, despite being Home Secretary, having a brother who is a very senior cop and who has repeatedly paid tribute to what his mum and dad did for him.

In short we as a society have been conditioned to be tolerant and respectful, but we have also been conditioned to hear the word gang and feel that little bit more comfortable with the prejudices we all have. We should bear that in mind when we start to talk about gangs.
I think your linking together a variety of separate issues that aren't really linked together and your also making assumptions. Very few members of the American Mafia, Mexican crime gangs or the Triads were raised in fatherless families. But these gangs are fighting for the control of the smuggling of drugs into countries, worth millions of dollars. African American gangs are even fighting over drugs, many of the murders are random, just watch Louis Theroux's visit to the mid west. I highly doubt that any of members of the grooming cases grew up in fatherless families, unless their father died. I'm just pointing out communities were you tend to find large numbers of children raised without fathers, from Russia to Jamaica tend to have huge problems with gang activity.

Also you can't explain why other groups who live in the same area as African Americans and Black British people don't commit the same levels of crime. The poverty rate for Hispanics in America is similar to that of African Americans, yet Hispanics don't commit crime at the same level. You didn't have the Crips and the Bloods before the 1970's when the rise of fatherless families in the Black community started, the same is the case in Britain. How many Black lads serving time in prison, grew up with a father in the picture. The same applies with White gang members in Britain, how many of them grew up with a father in the house.
 
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