Current Affairs The " another shooting in America " thread

[PaddyJames]

Complacency eh. Complacency is getting my order wrong from McDonalds. She pulled a gun on a man and shot him dead. Even the 'taser' warning is bollocks, she has enough time to realise her mistake if it was a mistake. At the very least she should be sent down for manslaughter. If you are that 'complacent' in charge of firearms then you are a danger to society.

 

[LinekersLegs]

 

[Prevenger17]

The first led to it. He doesn't get killed if he doesn't run.

He also doesn't get killed if the police officer doesn't shoot him with a gun

Lets do an exercise. Put these mistakes in order of severity, with the most egregious mistake first

1. Running away from police in a moment of panic
2. Pulling a gun out instead of a taser and shooting a 20 year old man dead

 

[Tubey]

He also doesn't get killed if the police officer doesn't shoot him with a gun

Lets do an exercise. Put these mistakes in order of severity, with the most egregious mistake first

1. Running away from police in a moment of panic
2. Pulling a gun out instead of a taser and shooting a 20 year old man dead

One doesn't happen without the other. That isn't being acknowledged.

 

[Prevenger17]

One doesn't happen without the other. That isn't being acknowledged.

Right, but its a bit like saying that the onus is on the victim not to be shot, because everything someone who is shot does could be perceived to lead directly to their shooting.

Take Elijah McClain for instance. Walking home with his grandmothers shopping. Autistic kid, and even the most unforgiving right wing bellend would not find a blemish on his record. He was wearing a sort of balaclava because it was cold.

He was jumped by police, put on the ground and was screaming for help. He struggled a bit too, because the next thing the police did was get the ambulance men to pump him full of ketamine. He died, having committed no crime and there being no reason for his subdual. But he did struggle in the small way that he could and was wearing a mask.

So would you say dying was all on him because he was struggling and had a mask on? Because one doesn't happen without the other

 

[Tubey]

Right, but its a bit like saying that the onus is on the victim not to be shot, because everything someone who is shot does could be perceived to lead directly to their shooting.

Take Elijah McClain for instance. Walking home with his grandmothers shopping. Autistic kid, and even the most unforgiving right wing bellend would not find a blemish on his record. He was wearing a sort of balaclava because it was cold.

He was jumped by police, put on the ground and was screaming for help. He struggled a bit too, because the next thing the police did was get the ambulance men to pump him full of ketamine. He died, having committed no crime and there being no reason for his subdual. But he did struggle in the small way that he could and was wearing a mask.

So would you say dying was all on him because he was struggling and had a mask on? Becauae one doesn't happen without the other

No, there's an obvious difference. Same as there's an obvious difference with the George Floyd one. They are murders, or at best unlawful killings. They have undertaken an unreasonable act, such as kneeling on someones neck for well beyond the time the guy had been subdued, against all training they receive, or injecting someone with ketamine for no reason. They are criminal acts, to be proven. The arrest of George Floyd was fine in theory, how it was done was anything but fine.

This one isn't that. This is a guy escaping arrest and bolting off in a car, after being clearly told what was happening and not being instantly assaulted by police. It isn't a murder, it is involuntary manslaughter. Everything was by the book except for two things - the guy escaping arrest, and the officer firing the wrong weapon. The officer doesn't fire the wrong weapon if the guy doesn't try to escape arrest.

That's the difference - personal responsibility.

 

[Prevenger17]

One doesn't happen without the other. That isn't being acknowledged.

Also, it is being acknowledged. And I'm going to put this in a separate sentence so you can see it.

We know why she shot him and understand the causal chain that led to his death. It is acknowledged.

What we are saying is the reason she killed him was insane and that people shouldn't die at a traffic stop. We're saying police officers should know the difference between a gun and a taser. I feel you're being needlessly obtuse

 

[Prevenger17]

No, there's an obvious difference. Same as there's an obvious difference with the George Floyd one. They are murders, or at best unlawful killings. They have undertaken an unreasonable act, such as kneeling on someones neck for well beyond the time the guy had been subdued, against all training they receive, or injecting someone with ketamine for no reason. They are criminal acts, to be proven. The arrest of George Floyd was fine in theory, how it was done was anything but fine.

This one isn't that. This is a guy escaping arrest and bolting off in a car, after being clearly told what was happening and not being instantly assaulted by police. It isn't a murder, it is involuntary manslaughter. Everything was by the book except for two things - the guy escaping arrest, and the officer firing the wrong weapon. The officer doesn't fire the wrong weapon if the guy doesn't try to escape arrest.

That's the difference - personal responsibility.

Elijah McClain struggled against arrest and screamed for his life. If he complied quietly, police officers may have not got the ketamine lads in quieten him. One doesn't happen without the other

 

[Tubey]

Also, it is being acknowledged. And I'm going to put this in a separate sentence so you can see it.

We know why she shot him and understand the causal chain that led to his death. It is acknowledged.

What we are saying is the reason she killed him was insane and that people shouldn't die at a traffic stop. We're saying police officers should know the difference between a gun and a taser. I feel you're being needlessly obtuse

Was it?

If she tased him for resisting arrest, is that 'insane'?

The officer has clearly made a horrendous mistake, and will face the consequence of that. But the mistake wasn't made 'because he was black' - it was a direct result of what he did.

 

[Prevenger17]

The officer has clearly made a horrendous mistake, and will face the consequence of that. But the mistake wasn't made 'because he was black' - it was a direct result of what he did.

Yes. And if I were the parent of a 20 year old man who died for what was probably a moment of panic at a traffic stop, my reaction wouldn't be "well he shouldn't have ran". My reaction would be "how the ***k do we live in a country where a young man can be shot to death for a mistake and it isn't even close to being the craziest way police have killed unarmed citizens in this country?". Or something like that.

I don't think it was a racist shooting, but it was another story in an absolutely appalling litany of fatal crimes against citizens by US police. People are angry, and telling that man's family and community that he shouldn't have ran and not to kick up about it is such a laughable apportioning of blame, I just don't know where to start with it.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Was it?

If she tased him for resisting arrest, is that 'insane'?

The officer has clearly made a horrendous mistake, and will face the consequence of that. But the mistake wasn't made 'because he was black' - it was a direct result of what he did.

Yes. to me tasing does seem an overreaction when the arrest is due to a misdemeanor (ie not prior history of violence) and there are no threats of violence displayed or weapons idenitified.

He wasn’t some murderer who was trying to escape so he could go on another rampage - as far as I’m aware he had an unpaid fine of ~$300 and an air freshener. What exactly was the societal threat if they had let him drive off and picked him up later?

 

[Tubey]

Yes. to me tasing does seem an overreaction when the arrest is due to a misdemeanor (ie not prior history of violence) and there are no threats of violence displayed or weapons idenitified.

He wasn’t some murderer who was trying to escape so he could go on another rampage - as far as I’m aware he had an unpaid fine of ~$300 and an air freshener. What exactly was the societal threat if they had let him drive off and picked him up later?

Because of things like this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-45149142

They made the decision to arrest, once he breaks it and tries to dive into the car, they have absolutely no choice but to attempt to stop him, especially in that country where everyone and their nan has guns.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

One insurrectionist was shot January 6th

One

With that context, please explain to me how this young black man, against all odds, ended up dead

 

[LinekersLegs]

Because of things like this.



They made the decision to arrest, once he breaks it and tries to dive into the car, they have absolutely no choice but to attempt to stop him, especially in that country where everyone and their nan has guns.

Link not visible to me? 404 page not found.

Even if you feel they have to attempt to stop him then and there why does that mean they instantly have to escalate to the most aggressive action short of shooting and that carries its own risks all by itself? Why not try talking and deescalation of tensions? Every person armed with even gun or knife isn’t instantly tased on the spot.

 

[Tubey]

Link not visible to me? 404 page not found.

Even if you feel they have to attempt to stop him then and there why does that mean they instantly have to escalate to the most aggressive action short of shooting and that carries its own risks all by itself? Why not try talking and deescalation of tensions? Every person armed with even gun or knife isn’t instantly tased on the spot.

Edited to put link in code. He's jumped in a car, could reach for concealed weapon, turn it round and plow into the police etc. etc.

He was a live threat. He invited the action - anyone who genuinely says the taser isn't the correct course of action in that scenario I'll never see eye to eye with on this one.