Current Affairs The " another shooting in America " thread

[Tubey]

If you ever wanted to see a complete and total failure of training to deal with a situation then that’s it.

Over here, that would have ended up at worst with a bundle on the floor - the bloke appeared to be ignoring their directions and they would not have wanted him to get into his car. The cops and him might have been hurt but almost certainly not fatally, and there would probably have been more obvious justification to what the cops were doing.

However as the US cops are trained to protect themselves with guns (and to protect the gun they have because if it’s taken off them they’ll probably get shot with it), instead of putting hands on the bloke they’ve pointed guns (and apparently a taser) at him to get compliance.

That hasn’t worked and so they’ve had no other options than let him get into the car, or shoot him.

They’ve proceeded to do the latter with the result that anyone watching that thinks it looks absolutely like an attempted murder, and not unreasonably (given that even in the US no one else in society would get away with shooting an unarmed bloke seven times in the back whilst he gets into his own car).

Problem is, if they leave that another 2 seconds and the guy turns around with a gun, then they're possibly dead police officers.

That's the context for me. In a land where everyone and their mother is walking around with guns, I can't possibly blame the police for acting as they did.

The blame, for me, lies with the guy ignoring orders and walking away and reaching for something in his car when a gun is pulled on him. If he followed the order, that chain of events doesn't happen.

 

[Tubey]

K town. I'm like 20 minutes from there.
That's straight murder.

It's clearly not though.

 

[D*ck Solomon]

One warped, backward country that is.

 

[tsubaki]

Problem is, if they leave that another 2 seconds and the guy turns around with a gun, then they're possibly dead police officers.

That's the context for me. In a land where everyone and their mother is walking around with guns, I can't possibly blame the police for acting as they did.

The blame, for me, lies with the guy ignoring orders and walking away and reaching for something in his car when a gun is pulled on him. If he followed the order, that chain of events doesn't happen.

.... but their training is what has allowed them to get to that point - if that was here, he would almost certainly not have been able to get to the car because the way in which compliance is obtained is much different.

He appears to have been unarmed at the start but it is the fact that they (the cops) were armed that meant they couldn’t grab him up. Therefore if he ignores them they are left with only bad options- let him ignore them, or shoot him.

 

[Tubey]

.... but their training is what has allowed them to get to that point - if that was here, he would almost certainly not have been able to get to the car because the way in which compliance is obtained is much different.

He appears to have been unarmed at the start but it is the fact that they (the cops) were armed that meant they couldn’t grab him up. Therefore if he ignores them they are left with only bad options- let him ignore them, or shoot him.

Indeed. But you're talking the space of five seconds. They ask for compliance, he ignores, he's around the car, they follow, he opens the door and reaches. The only chance of changing that outcome was cracking him over the head with the gun instead of grabbing him 1 to 2 seconds earlier, but again you'd get screams of racism if he did.

If I'm the police, I'm shooting him every single time that scenario unfolds. Because that backwards country potentially has a gun under every car seat.

It's not racism - it's the police doing what they felt they had to do given reasonable assumptions under the circumstances. The blame lies with the idiot ignoring clear orders. People should stop shouting "racism" and protesting if anything and everything happens to a black person; it dilutes the power of protest when there's legitimate racism, as with George Floyd. This isn't even in the same ballpark.

 

[cronullasharks]

Indeed. But you're talking the space of five seconds. They ask for compliance, he ignores, he's around the car, they follow, he opens the door and reaches. The only chance of changing that outcome was cracking him over the head with the gun instead of grabbing him 1 to 2 seconds earlier, but again you'd get screams of racism if he did.

If I'm the police, I'm shooting him every single time that scenario unfolds. Because that backwards country potentially has a gun under every car seat.

It's not racism - it's the police doing what they felt they had to do given reasonable assumptions under the circumstances. The blame lies with the idiot ignoring clear orders. People should stop shouting "racism" and protesting if anything and everything happens to a black person; it dilutes the power of protest when there's legitimate racism, as with George Floyd. This isn't even in the same ballpark.

I can't see any need what so ever to shoot him 7 times in the back.

 

[Tubey]

I can't see any need what so ever to shoot him 7 times in the back.

To avoid the possibility of getting shot once in the head by an idiot ignoring clear orders whilst doing my job as a police officer.

 

[cronullasharks]

To avoid the possibility of getting shot once in the head by an idiot ignoring clear orders whilst doing my job as a police officer.

7 times seems a bit extreme, however i do concede your point.

 

[Tubey]

7 times seems a bit extreme, however i do concede your point.

One shot or two shots and there's a chance the guy still grabs, turns and fires - seven and there isn't.

The decision to shoot is basically to incapacitate/essentially kill. That's the aim; the sole reason for firing.

I'd have put every bullet I had into him personally.

 

[Huyton Layne]

It's clearly not though.

It is mate. I even checked google maps.
Nah but if he dies, that's murder. There were so many times during that incident that he could have been dealt with but holding a gun up at an unarmed man makes it difficult to physically deal with him. Pulling your gun as the first resort is ridiculous.

 

[cronullasharks]

One shot or two shots and there's a chance the guy still grabs, turns and fires - seven and there isn't.

The decision to shoot is basically to incapacitate/essentially kill. That's the aim; the sole reason for firing.

I'd have put every bullet I had into him personally.

I'd like to know the whole story, I've read he stopped to break up a fight (no idea if true obviously). And getting executed simply for walking away to your own car (again who knows if he had a gun) just doesn't sit right with me. It looks like they had plenty of time to tackle or taser him before he got to the car as well.

 

[tsubaki]

Indeed. But you're talking the space of five seconds. They ask for compliance, he ignores, he's around the car, they follow, he opens the door and reaches. The only chance of changing that outcome was cracking him over the head with the gun instead of grabbing him 1 to 2 seconds earlier, but again you'd get screams of racism if he did.

If I'm the police, I'm shooting him every single time that scenario unfolds. Because that backwards country potentially has a gun under every car seat.

It's not racism - it's the police doing what they felt they had to do given reasonable assumptions under the circumstances. The blame lies with the idiot ignoring clear orders. People should stop shouting "racism" and protesting if anything and everything happens to a black person; it dilutes the power of protest when there's legitimate racism, as with George Floyd. This isn't even in the same ballpark.

I think it might be a little bit racism - for a start that video is not the whole incident, just the end of it. We don’t know how long it had been going up to that point so saying it lasted five seconds isn’t really on.

Secondly are you really saying that cops have the right to shoot just for not following orders? That is not something they’ve been given legal permission by even society over there.

Yes, he might have been going to get a gun but he could have been doing anything else - getting ID, calming one of the three kids that were in the vehicle, we don’t know. They didn’t know either; they just thought he might be going for something and shot him multiple times in the back.

Of course the point is that this isn’t an isolated incident, but whilst US policing refuses to even acknowledge that there’s a problem then communities, especially ones disproportionately impacted by this, have every right to complain.

I mean take a look at that UCR poster that Tir shared a few pages back - that a pro-cop, pro-Trump FB group can point to only 41 police killings in a year of unarmed people (only 9 of whom were black!) and think it’s is evidence that backs them up is insane. There were 359 more officer involved fatal shootings in the US in 2019 than there were murders in England and Wales in the same year ffs!

not sure why anyone would just accept that

 

[Tubey]

I think it might be a little bit racism - for a start that video is not the whole incident, just the end of it. We don’t know how long it had been going up to that point so saying it lasted five seconds isn’t really on.

Secondly are you really saying that cops have the right to shoot just for not following orders? That is not something they’ve been given legal permission by even society over there.

Yes, he might have been going to get a gun but he could have been doing anything else - getting ID, calming one of the three kids that were in the vehicle, we don’t know. They didn’t know either; they just thought he might be going for something and shot him multiple times in the back.

Of course the point is that this isn’t an isolated incident, but whilst US policing refuses to even acknowledge that there’s a problem then communities, especially ones disproportionately impacted by this, have every right to complain.

I mean take a look at that UCR poster that Tir shared a few pages back - that a pro-cop, pro-Trump FB group can point to only 41 police killings in a year of unarmed people (only 9 of whom were black!) and think it’s is evidence that backs them up is insane. There were 359 more officer involved fatal shootings in the US in 2019 than there were murders in England and Wales in the same year ffs!

not sure why anyone would just accept that

It did last five seconds from the point guns were drawn and the suspect ignored and moved away from the officers. Everything else is secondary to that situation. It doesn't matter if what happened beforehand was an argument or a polite discussion, the moment the suspect ignores them he creates the problem.

No, I mean they have the right to shoot if they're not following orders and their actions create a situation where the officer can reasonably suspect a danger to their life.

Just quickly googled protocol for a definition and the below is the first to come up:

Whenever the actions of the arrestee (regardless of whether he is a misdemeanant or a felon) are of such a nature as to create an honest belief in the mind of the officer that he is in danger of death or great bodily harm he is justified in killing the arrestee in self-defense. 10 There are two requirements for the exercise of this privilege: that the circumstances be such as to reasonably warrant the belief that the officer's life is threatened, and that he honestly believes that such danger exists.

https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3737&context=jclc

Basically that. By opening the car door and leaning in, he created the situation for the cop to rightfully fire at him. No court or any body investigating that incident will blame the police for it, and rightly so.

 

[ChesterBlue]

One shot or two shots and there's a chance the guy still grabs, turns and fires - seven and there isn't.

The decision to shoot is basically to incapacitate/essentially kill. That's the aim; the sole reason for firing.

I'd have put every bullet I had into him personally.

What a weird thing to say so casually. “I’d have put every bullet I had into him personally” really? Would you murder someone in cold blood like that? If so I suggest you do a bit of soul searching mate.

 

[Harryflashman]

When people are pointing firearms at you then failing you comply with instructions is clearly a dangerous course of action . However to say option one is to shout “stop “ but option two is to empty your weapon into him seems to have missed a whole range of none deadly force options .

Of course cracking him across the head could be Deemed racist but it seems better than shooting him 7 times , I don’t know if US cops are routinely issued with tasers or c’s/pepper spray , they certainly have batons which would mean you could holster a weapon and crack him across the knee for example or any other number of locations