Current Affairs The " another shooting in America " thread

[mezzrow]

When the NRA stops blocking a registration database, I'll listen.
When the NRA stops blocking restrictions to automatic and semi-automatic weapons, I'll listen.
When the NRA stops lobbying for open-carry, I'll listen.
When the NRA stops pushing full reciprocity of concealed-carry rights, which limits States' rights, I'll listen.
When the NRA stops buying elected officials, I'll listen.
When the NRA stops using its money as a bully pulpit, shaming businesses for not joining their agenda and allowing open carry.

Until then, the blood is on their hands. They are fully aware they are accomplices to all of this.

"Broward announced broad changes designed to mitigate the use of harsh punishments for minor misbehavior at the beginning of this school year. While other districts have amended their discipline codes, prohibited arrests in some circumstances, and developed alternatives to suspension, Broward was able to do all these things at once with the cooperation of a group that included a member of the local NAACP, a school board member, a public defender, a local sheriff, a state prosecutor, and several others," American Prospect reported in 2013.

"In early November, The Miami Herald reported that suspensions were already down 40 percent and arrests were down 66 percent. Yet these changes required years of advocacy. The hard scrabble road to Broward’s success also helps explain why zero tolerance policies have persisted."

http://prospect.org/article/reversing-broward-countys-school-prison-pipeline

Stop suspending kids and stop arresting kids, and guess what? The percent of students suspended or arrested drops. Brilliant.

Thus, law enforcement officials visited the shooter 30 times, knew the shooter was trouble, but did nothing because the statistic was all important.

You can get everything you want and it won't make a dime's worth of difference regarding school shootings.

Democrats campaigning on gun control is like Republicans campaigning on abortion. NRA applications are going through the roof. You're welcome to hold onto that third rail as long as you can stand it. Still love you, mate. BTW, I'm on your side on your fourth item. I'm a hard-liner regarding federalism.

 

[Ruairi77]

Democrats campaigning on gun control is like Republicans campaigning on abortion. NRA applications are going through the roof.

that's a weird analogy, you think republican objection to abortion is forcing democrats to join planned parenthood?

If the NRA supported the same restrictions for semi-automatic weapons as fully automatic weapons, there'd be a reduction in mass shootings, I'm fairly sure of that.

 

[SerenityNigh]

"Broward announced broad changes designed to mitigate the use of harsh punishments for minor misbehavior at the beginning of this school year. While other districts have amended their discipline codes, prohibited arrests in some circumstances, and developed alternatives to suspension, Broward was able to do all these things at once with the cooperation of a group that included a member of the local NAACP, a school board member, a public defender, a local sheriff, a state prosecutor, and several others," American Prospect reported in 2013.

"In early November, The Miami Herald reported that suspensions were already down 40 percent and arrests were down 66 percent. Yet these changes required years of advocacy. The hard scrabble road to Broward’s success also helps explain why zero tolerance policies have persisted."

http://prospect.org/article/reversing-broward-countys-school-prison-pipeline

Stop suspending kids and stop arresting kids, and guess what? The percent of students suspended or arrested drops. Brilliant.

Thus, law enforcement officials visited the shooter 30 times, knew the shooter was trouble, but did nothing because the statistic was all important.

You can get everything you want and it won't make a dime's worth of difference regarding school shootings.

Democrats campaigning on gun control is like Republicans campaigning on abortion. NRA applications are going through the roof. You're welcome to hold onto that third rail as long as you can stand it. Still love you, mate. BTW, I'm on your side on your fourth item. I'm a hard-liner regarding federalism.

We're on different sides of this topic, but I know you listen (even if what you write makes me think you don't)

You can't cherrypick your defense of a position and expect it to pass muster. You can blame everyone you want for these shootings over the years, but the common denominator is access to weapons that are unnecessary. It's beyond silly how much we are willing to put up with as a society to protect the right to keep toys that we don't need.

I've written simply, and bluntly, on the twitters (and really angered Tex as well) my solution: if it's middle class white males doing all the violence (if guns aren't the problem), then let's solve our middle class white male problem and then maybe we won't need to solve the gun problem.

If that's offensive, and we're nowhere nearing getting rid of the whites, then maybe we should take a second look at the guns problem.

 

[mezzrow]

you think republican objection to abortion is forcing democrats to join planned parenthood?

I wouldn't use the word forcing. Both bases are easy to mobilize under threat (choice, gun rights) and express personal autonomy against state authority. Both issues do little to convince unmotivated voters (they just turn it all off) and motivate their own bases to be even harsher with rhetoric. I don't know the head band guy at Douglas, but many of my friends do. He lost two of his band kids to this, and his own son was in the room with him when this went down. My main objection is that this is misdirection to cover the arses of the officers and department charged with protecting these people. I'd like to see more light and less heat. After 9/11 not one person lost a government job related to not preventing it from happening. After this, how much accountability will we see for the BCSD rules of engagement that kept their people outside the kill zone to let the victims bleed out? They were actively restricting medical first responders who were fully willing to enter the scene.

The way the media is using this to build clicks and try to pump up their decaying brands is reprehensible. The NRA is a handy and cynically chosen pinata. They are the rabbit in the briar patch. This doesn't hurt them a bit. They are selling their own cynically chosen meme that the Democratic party aligned police departments (insert pic of Scott Israel and Hillary Clinton) are not so very anti-school shooters because it makes the NRA look bad and is good for the party. If this were gospel truth, how different would the learned facts of the BCSD response look from what we have seen so far?

 

[LinekersLegs]

If Obama had said this the NRA would be freaking out about the government using illegal measures to strip them of their weapons - and they would have the benefit for once of being right in that this would be both unconstitutional and likely to be overturned in court.

 

[mezzrow]

We're on different sides of this topic, but I know you listen (even if what you write makes me think you don't)

You can't cherrypick your defense of a position and expect it to pass muster. You can blame everyone you want for these shootings over the years, but the common denominator is access to weapons that are unnecessary. It's beyond silly how much we are willing to put up with as a society to protect the right to keep toys that we don't need.

I've written simply, and bluntly, on the twitters (and really angered Tex as well) my solution: if it's middle class white males doing all the violence (if guns aren't the problem), then let's solve our middle class white male problem and then maybe we won't need to solve the gun problem.

If that's offensive, and we're nowhere nearing getting rid of the whites, then maybe we should take a second look at the guns problem.

Lets look at it, then. Break down gun deaths by all the statistics. Eliminate suicides. Eliminate all gun deaths that don't involve middle class white males as perps. See what percentage remains. Make a special category within it for gun deaths due to NRA members, accidental or intentional.

What difference will that make to the overall carnage? I don't know those numbers, but they're out there. I'll engage.

Is the problem middle class gun culture as embodied by the NRA? Is the problem as bad as we feel it is? Will the numbers confirm our expectation? What do the numbers look like in relation to historical numbers?

This isn't the brand new phenomenon we're being told it is. Let's break down the history of violent death in these United States. What is the trend, short and long term?

 

[MrPerfectNot]

This isn't the brand new phenomenon we're being told it is. Let's break down the history of violent death in these United States. What is the trend, short and long term?

Dickey Amendment. Yes, I'm a broken record - but to have discussions about this we need actual, credible data.

 

[SerenityNigh]

Lets look at it, then. Break down gun deaths by all the statistics. Eliminate suicides. Eliminate all gun deaths that don't involve middle class white males as perps. See what percentage remains. Make a special category within it for gun deaths due to NRA members, accidental or intentional.

What difference will that make to the overall carnage? I don't know those numbers, but they're out there. I'll engage.

Is the problem middle class gun culture as embodied by the NRA? Is the problem as bad as we feel it is? Will the numbers confirm our expectation? What do the numbers look like in relation to historical numbers?

This isn't the brand new phenomenon we're being told it is. Let's break down the history of violent death in these United States. What is the trend, short and long term?

The relevant questions are probably too long to list, but I can't get behind this as the starting point without suggesting a few other parameters we don't have: registration database; sales database; police violence database.

Can we narrow down mass murders to one eliminable cause? I think the answer is a resounding "No", but as they're strongly correlated to possession of guns, I'm willing to risk the "bad science" and start there as a temporary measure.

All Americans are willing to trade some liberties for a "greater good," and not only when the liberty belongs to someone else and the good belongs to them.

I don't think it's weakness or unreasonable to say that you don't know the answer, but I think it's foolish to say we shouldn't try to find the problem.

I don't know all of the right-approved solutions, but two I've seen are: make schools a police state (not my preferred choice, but I'm open to discussing its merits); test all gun owners/possessors and certify their mental health (can't see how this is possible given the lack of registration database; honestly can't see this getting much support from either side)

 

[Pettifogger]

When the NRA stops blocking a registration database, I'll listen.
When the NRA stops blocking restrictions to automatic and semi-automatic weapons, I'll listen.
When the NRA stops lobbying for open-carry, I'll listen.
When the NRA stops pushing full reciprocity of concealed-carry rights, which limits States' rights, I'll listen.
When the NRA stops buying elected officials, I'll listen.
When the NRA stops using its money as a bully pulpit, shaming businesses for not joining their agenda and allowing open carry.

Until then, the blood is on their hands. They are fully aware they are accomplices to all of this.

Automatic weapons are irrelevant to this. Open carry is irrelevant to this and practically never a contributor to violent crime. Concealed carry rights are irrelevant to this and practically never contribute to gun crime. The NRA "buys" elected officials in the same manner any other lobbying group does. Presently, companies are being bullied for affiliating with the NRA in any sense.

 

[mezzrow]

The relevant questions are probably too long to list, but I can't get behind this as the starting point without suggesting a few other parameters we don't have: registration database; sales database; police violence database.

Can we narrow down mass murders to one eliminable cause? I think the answer is a resounding "No", but as they're strongly correlated to possession of guns, I'm willing to risk the "bad science" and start there as a temporary measure.

All Americans are willing to trade some liberties for a "greater good," and not only when the liberty belongs to someone else and the good belongs to them.

I don't think it's weakness or unreasonable to say that you don't know the answer, but I think it's foolish to say we shouldn't try to find the problem.

I don't know all of the right-approved solutions, but two I've seen are: make schools a police state (not my preferred choice, but I'm open to discussing its merits); test all gun owners/possessors and certify their mental health (can't see how this is possible given the lack of registration database; honestly can't see this getting much support from either side)

Fully agree. Numbers are boring, though. Lots of people with passionate feelings are also innumerate. It's sad, but it's true.

On this forum, we could have a dandy seminar and learn a lot. As part of the national conversation, we get the treatment that gave us Trump today. Answers will be found to future and current problems via the intellectual darkweb, in my not very humble opinion. People who won't read three pages of paper will listen to three hours of Joe Rogan because it's entertaining and you learn stuff from these hella smart guys he talks to. Joe asks great questions between the vulgar adjectives, too. These days, I'm big into both Weinstein brothers (Eric and Bret), Pinker, and of course the head lobster, JBP.

 

[Pettifogger]

that's a weird analogy, you think republican objection to abortion is forcing democrats to join planned parenthood?

If the NRA supported the same restrictions for semi-automatic weapons as fully automatic weapons, there'd be a reduction in mass shootings, I'm fairly sure of that.

Democrats regularly fill social media showing receipts for donations to PP when PP is attacked by the GOP.

As for a reduction in mass shootings, it'd probably take a ban and confiscation of semi-automatic weapons (particularly including handguns) to see a result. Which most gun control proponents probably support in reality, but will claim they don't so they can continue the "you rednecks are idiots, nobody wants to ban or take your guns away" ruse.

 

[SerenityNigh]

Automatic weapons are irrelevant to this. Open carry is irrelevant to this and practically never a contributor to violent crime. Concealed carry rights are irrelevant to this and practically never contribute to gun crime. The NRA "buys" elected officials in the same manner any other lobbying group does. Presently, companies are being bullied for affiliating with the NRA in any sense.

Statistically speaking, none of this contributes to violent crime, except the weapon. It's a matter of attitude.

The FAA preaches "Safety Begins With You" when issuing/reissuing certifications. It's on the backing paper the license is stuck to (like what your credit cards are stuck to). They build systems and programs centered around a "safety culture" to prevent accidents, which are extremely rare to begin with, and goes to extreme measures to prevent accidents. The T-34 Mentor was grounded (the entire fleet of FAA registered aircraft) due to a wing spar/fatigue issue that caused structural failure. The Air Force's T6 is currently grounded due to a hypoxia issued (although may be back in service this week). The FAA temporarily grounded the 787 due to battery issues when it was first in service.

What are we doing as a culture to promote safe spaces/schools? Allowing these "personal freedoms" isn't doing anything to promote safety, it just reinforces that the individual is more important than the collective.

 

[DanEFC92]

@TX Bill your boy Woods is an utter scumbag.

 

[SerenityNigh]

The FAA preaches "Safety Begins With You" when issuing/reissuing certifications. It's on the backing paper the license is stuck to (like what your credit cards are stuck to). They build systems and programs centered around a "safety culture" to prevent accidents, which are extremely rare to begin with, and goes to extreme measures to prevent accidents. The T-34 Mentor was grounded (the entire fleet of FAA registered aircraft) due to a wing spar/fatigue issue that caused structural failure. The Air Force's T6 is currently grounded due to a hypoxia issued (although may be back in service this week). The FAA temporarily grounded the 787 due to battery issues when it was first in service.

This is a bit obtuse, but what I meant to write is that the FAA's culture of safety initiative is expansive, from what gets printed on throwaway paper to whether an entire fleet of certified aircraft are considered airworthy.

I think this culture of safety issue would help the US concerning its gun culture.

 

[ilikecheese]

Democrats regularly fill social media showing receipts for donations to PP when PP is attacked by the GOP.

As for a reduction in mass shootings, it'd probably take a ban and confiscation of semi-automatic weapons (particularly including handguns) to see a result. Which most gun control proponents probably support in reality, but will claim they don't so they can continue the "you rednecks are idiots, nobody wants to ban or take your guns away" ruse.

NRA speak 101. One crack in the dam and it all comes tumbling down.