Current Affairs The " another shooting in America " thread

[longers]

And statistically you'll end up getting shot with your own gun.

Nah, I’m a pro at call of duty mate.

 

[neil999]

Its so they can protect themselves from a corrupt government,

Easy to say sat in England...

If I lived in certain parts of the US I’d 100% have a hand gun in the house for protection, hopefully/probably never use it but if everyone else has one I’m not going to be the only mug without one.

how about a semi auto?

they could easily restrict gun ownership, by making a one per household rule...so you still have 'protection' as such

but then the NRA wouldnt make as much money which is what this is all about....

 

[Prevenger17]

Nah, I’m a pro at call of duty mate.

I'd smash you mate and I wouldn't need a gun, combat knife loadout with marathon and commando pro

 

[verreauxi]

 

[neil999]

florida is a swing state isnt it? very interesting to see how next election goes

 

[tsubaki]

how about a semi auto?

they could easily restrict gun ownership, by making a one per household rule...so you still have 'protection' as such

but then the NRA wouldnt make as much money which is what this is all about....

As an aside, this is probably the best legal angle to use for reforming gun rights with the Second Amendment as a basis; you could just put the militia on an official footing and say that every able-bodied adult had* to have a rifle of a certain type and a pistol of a certain type, and a hundred rounds each at home and then make people apply (with background checks, spot inspections and all the other reforms people want to bring in etc) for the rest.

The 2A does actually say "a well-regulated militia" so it would be almost impossible to argue against.

* though people could get permission not to be a part of it

 

[Pettifogger]

In order to understand the gun debate, we need to first understand why Americans are so scared and what they are scared of. Farmers and hunters can claim a legitimite reason for owning a gun, other than that, the main reason is fear. Why are they so scared they feel the need to own a gun?

Too simplistic. Buying a gun is a right of passage in parts of the American south/midwest/west. It's easy enough to discount these lawyers, doctors, etc. as scared rednecks, but it just isn't true. People like to train with firearms. They like that firearms are a conservative statement. Some collect firearms not like others collect antiques, but like others may collect headphones or new technology. And sure, they like that they have firearms should something go awry. But the vast majority of people who own firearms don't carry them, which is probably a good indication that they don't live in constant paranoia as many project.

I won't pretend there isn't a swath of people who fancy themselves Rambo, but it's just a sliver of the roughly 45ish percent of American households with a firearm.

 

[verreauxi]

Like what sensible gun control positions?

Off the top of my head: banning assault rifles, banning automatic weapons, federalizing the process of obtaining a gun rather than keeping it state-by-state or city-by-city, taxing ammunition, stronger background checks, more and more lucrative (for the seller) gun buy-back programs, better research on gun statistics/gun deaths, etc.

 

[Prevenger17]

I have a feeling it will be the "Failing New York Post" in a day or two

 

[Pettifogger]

Off the top of my head: banning assault rifles, banning automatic weapons, federalizing the process of obtaining a gun rather than keeping it state-by-state or city-by-city, taxing ammunition, stronger background checks, more and more lucrative (for the seller) gun buy-back programs, better research on gun statistics/gun deaths, etc.

Federal NICS background checks already exist and automatic weapons are already highly regulated. Obviously I disagree with renewal of the AWB for the reasons previously discussed.

I would likely support strengthening background checks, but that isn't something that can be done overnight. It requires data that we don't have. The FBI knew of this kid but probably didn't have a way or reason to flag him in NICS. We will have to have "national conversations" on privacy and mental health to bolster those systems. That will involve tough choices that will be tough for all sides, not just pro-liberty conservatives.

Gun buy backs are state and local, so I'm open to whatever those states/municipalities want to do.

 

[Prevenger17]

but that isn't something that can be done overnight

Could have got the ball rolling after one of the last few hundred or so times a school has been shot up I reckon.

Realistically, nothing will be done. Republicans will point at mental health and do nothing about that either and we'll be back talking about this in a couple of weeks in the aftermath of the next massacre. It's sad, but there's more likelihood of the Union collapsing then there ever being any movement on this issue. I feel sorry for anyone who actually has to live over there and bang their heads against this particular brick wall every few weeks, but school massacres are as American as Apple Pie now.

 

[verreauxi]

Federal NICS background checks already exist and automatic weapons are already highly regulated. Obviously I disagree with renewal of the AWB for the reasons previously discussed.

I would likely support strengthening background checks, but that isn't something that can be done overnight. It requires data that we don't have. The FBI knew of this kid but probably didn't have a way or reason to flag him in NICS. We will have to have "national conversations" on privacy and mental health to bolster those systems. That will involve tough choices that will be tough for all sides, not just pro-liberty conservatives.

Gun buy backs are state and local, so I'm open to whatever those states/municipalities want to do.

I actually meant to say federally-funded and federally-mandated gun buy-back programs...(and yes, I can anticipate your position on this already).

I've got to get back to work, but regarding the bolded statement above, I assume you are aware that the NRA has lobbied their crony-politicians to prevent the CDC from collecting data on gun deaths and other statistics...absolutely crazy: THE NRA's crony politicians are actively preventing a federal institution from scientifically studying a socially-relevant topic.

 

[Prevenger17]

I assume you are aware that the NRA has lobbied their crony-politicians to prevent the CDC from collecting data on gun deaths and other statistics

Pettifogger would prefer to wait for the statistics that aren't allowed to be compiled

 

[Ruairi77]

I would likely support strengthening background checks, but that isn't something that can be done overnight. It requires data that we don't have. The FBI knew of this kid but probably didn't have a way or reason to flag him in NICS. We will have to have "national conversations" on privacy and mental health to bolster those systems. That will involve tough choices that will be tough for all sides, not just pro-liberty conservatives.

What about lifting the ban on the CDC researching gun violence?
and what's a pro-liberty conservative? are there anti-liberty conservatives?

 

[LinekersLegs]

Lineker, it's interesting. I have no idea how to gauge whether sunset of either limitation can be credited with an increase in mass killings. As I suspect you know, the seminal AWB study (famously and inaccurately cited by Dianne Feinstein) concluded there was no evidence the AWB saved lives and that reenacting it would likely result in statistically insignificant changes, if any at all. I think it's likely that the AWB had very little impact on gun crime. I similarly don't think expanded CCW or the expiration of the AWB is connected to declining gun crime, as some gun rights supporters claim.

But the reality is that "Mass Murders" get a lot of attention but are, to borrow from Nate Silver and Co., "a bad way to understand gun violence."

This study https://www.factcheck.org/2013/02/did-the-1994-assault-weapons-ban-work/ - I'd forgotten about it so thanks for the reference. Seems like the results are not definitive as either side would like to claim

Koper, Jan 14: In general we found, really, very, very little evidence, almost none, that gun violence was becoming any less lethal or any less injurious during this time frame. So on balance, we concluded that the ban had not had a discernible impact on gun crime during the years it was in effect.
Koper, Jan. 14: The grandfathering provisions in the law meant that the effects of the law would occur only very gradually over time. It seems that those effects were still unfolding when the ban was lifted, and indeed they may not have been fully realized for several more years into the future even if the ban had been extended in 2004. The evidence is too limited for any firm projections, but it does suggest that long term restrictions on these guns and magazines could potentially produce at least a small reduction in shootings.
Koper, Jan. 14: So, using that as a very tentative guide, that’s high enough to suggest that eliminating or greatly reducing crimes with these magazines could produce a small reduction in shootings, likely something less than 5 percent. Now we should note that effects of this magnitude could be hard to ever measure in any very definitive way, but they nonetheless could have nontrivial, notable benefits for society. Consider, for example, at our current level of our gun violence, achieving a 1 percent reduction in fatal and non-fatal criminal shootings would prevent approximately 650 shootings annually … And, of course having these sorts of guns, and particularly magazines, less accessible to offenders could make it more difficult for them to commit the sorts of mass shootings that we’ve seen in recent years.”

As you say "mass shootings" get a lot of the attention but aren't the biggest numbers in gun deaths/injuries which are suicides followed by general crime. Perhaps a AWB ban wouldn't affect those latter two numbers much, improving mental health policies and awareness would probably reduce the suicide figures far more for instance.

However I do think there is evidence that a AWB ban would affect the mass shootings and having less kids dying after their school is shot up is imo a very worthwhile goal even if it doesn't reduce gun crime much overall.