Current Affairs The 2020 United States Presidential Election

[BlueDraka]

I don’t really understand the mindset that it should just be the leaders and organizers. Did a fundamental lack of planning, and in some cases what is looking like outright complicity from police embolden and enable everyone? Sure it did. Still, anyone with a room temperature IQ knows that breaking into the the seat of the United States government is unacceptable, and deserves to be prosecuted.

Think the police were totally unprepared for this. Don't know why? They were tweeting for days before about what was going to happen. Have seen reports that some of these capitol police actually helped some of the rioters to get in

 

[TN Toffee]

Can he be impeached if he has left office?

There is precedent that would almost certainly allow for the House to impeach him. As for a potential conviction by the Senate holding up, that seems murkier. It’s never really been tested in court, and with the Supreme Court currently having a 6-3 conservative majority, I kind of doubt the conviction would stick.

 

[dead_soft]

I've explained my view several times, but it comes down to when in power, don't do things that give extremists something to exploit and spread fear in the populace who hold certain political views.

Biden needs to nudge the political spectrum left, not batter the dial all the way to the left, because one is reasonable, the other results in backlash. Because now is a time to stop burning bridges and be sensible.

It seems that means extremists get their way and nothing gets changed. It's hard to actually know what you think is acceptable and what isn't because you've just given vague phrases here and in your last comment. 'Be sensible' is not a political position.

Is universal healthcare too much? Is higher taxation okay? Is removing racist statues too far? Is prosecuting police who kill black people going to antagonise extremists?

 

[Tubey]

The Fascists wouldn't have done Fascist things if it wasn't for the Black people protesting for the right to not be killed by Police Officers.

Do you know how fascism arose in Italy? Do you know your history like? It's easy to make such a trite comment but it's much harder to understand cause and effect.

Fascism under Mussolini was a response to very similar scenes as to what we're seeing now - a yearning for national unity, due to weak leadership following WW1. People were sold on right wing values because they felt safe and a return to what they knew, and the opposite view failed to gain traction because they couldn't sell a coherent vision. They were happy to accept Trump-esque extremism if it meant society was fixed.

Sound familiar?

Again, these things don't happen in a vacuum. One thing leads to another, as it always has. If you don't learn from history, you repeat it.

 

[dead_soft]

There is precedent that would almost certainly allow for the House to impeach him. As for a potential conviction by the Senate holding up, that seems murkier. It’s never really been tested in court, and with the Supreme Court currently having a 6-3 conservative majority, I kind of doubt the conviction would stick.

It'd be interesting to see the arguments too - I guess they could say it wouldn't be beneficial to the nation for it to happen?

 

[Tubey]

It seems that means extremists get their way and nothing gets changed. It's hard to actually know what you think is acceptable and what isn't because you've just given vague phrases here and in your last comment. 'Be sensible' is not a political position.

Is universal healthcare too much? Is higher taxation okay? Is removing racist statues too far? Is prosecuting police who kill black people going to antagonise extremists?

No it's the opposite - that's how you defeat extremism; by not being extreme in turn.

As for your examples, here's the thing - you can do some of those things and not do all. "Some" is fine - nobody is expecting Biden to be right wing - but "all" is where you enter dangerous territory and inspire rebellion.

It's better to take a bit over many years than trying to take the lot in a year. Because one gets fought back against, the other doesn't.

 

[tsubaki]

Because until the last decade or so, there was an understanding that it was a decreasing minority of whites that were racists on an overt level.

When you see the Capitol draped in actual, verifiable racists, I don't blame black people in thinking the issue is as bad as it was in the Jim Crow era.

Which takes me back to a point I've made over and over again on here - race relations have gone backwards, are currently in the toilet, and in my view the answer to that is to dial back the extremism and the mad rhetoric all over the shop and instead breathe and think.

That comes from having, despite deadsoft's hatred of this term, a "grown up" in power. One who doesn't seek revenge and instead seeks reconciliation.

Was there, though - or was that just what we all convinced ourselves?

To borrow your argument about one thing leading to another, this more obvious racism - the rise of Trumpism, the rise of the alt-right and the use of all that for political and self-enrichment ends - did come as a reaction to an event in recent US history; slightly more than one decade ago but not as long as a decade and a half. That event wasn't threatening, it wasn't illegal, there was no violence or political chicanery, it was a clear and obvious decision by the people (twice), it didn't lead to a socialist utopia being created from the powdered bones of patriot children and a grown up was put in power as a result.

These people have always been there, and they'll react to Biden (and doubly so for Harris) in the same way that they reacted then. They are the extremists, the actual nazis, the people who its probably futile to reason with.

 

[Hickson9]

Do you know how fascism arose in Italy? Do you know your history like? It's easy to make such a trite comment but it's much harder to understand cause and effect.

Fascism under Mussolini was a response to very similar scenes as to what we're seeing now - a yearning for national unity, due to weak leadership following WW1. People were sold on right wing values because they felt safe and a return to what they knew, and the opposite view failed to gain traction because they couldn't sell a coherent vision. They were happy to accept Trump-esque extremism if it meant society was fixed.

Sound familiar?

Again, these things don't happen in a vacuum. One thing leads to another, as it always has. If you don't learn from history, you repeat it.

Yes, I have a history degree and it is one of main hobbies. I'll know more about the rise of fascism in Italy than most here.

It is still complete and utter horse manure to be drawing a straight line from the justified Black Lives Matters protests to a Fascist assault on the centre of democracy.

 

[Tubey]

Was there, though - or was that just what we all convinced ourselves?

To borrow your argument about one thing leading to another, this more obvious racism - the rise of Trumpism, the rise of the alt-right and the use of all that for political and self-enrichment ends - did come as a reaction to an event in recent US history; slightly more than one decade ago but not as long as a decade and a half. That event wasn't threatening, it wasn't illegal, there was no violence or political chicanery, it was a clear and obvious decision by the people (twice), it didn't lead to a socialist utopia being created from the powdered bones of patriot children and a grown up was put in power as a result.

These people have always been there, and they'll react to Biden (and doubly so for Harris) in the same way that they reacted then. They are the extremists, the actual nazis, the people who its probably futile to reason with.

Nazis aren't born, they're made.

You fight them by extinguishing their breeding ground by not facilitating angst, whether justified or not.

 

[Tubey]

Yes, I have a history degree and it is one of main hobbies. I'll know more about the rise of fascism in Italy than most here.

It is still complete and utter horse manure to be drawing a straight line from the justified Black Lives Matters protests to a Fascist assault on the centre of democracy.

I didn't though - if anything, I drew many lines that lead to this, over many years. You can trace cause and effect back to 2000 under Bush if you care to, or you can go back to Reagan, Jim Crow and so on.

At some point, you have to recognise what the status quo is and that it's not sustainable. It's easy to just write off those at the Capitol as "Nazis" and seek revenge; it's a lot harder to look at the whole and try and remedy the situation that led to it.

 

[tsubaki]

Nazis aren't born, they're made.

You fight them by extinguishing their breeding ground by not facilitating angst, whether justified or not.

Fine, but I am not sure how appealing to their better nature and not calling them Nazis does that. Surely to fix the problems in the South and in the media you'd have to actually do something to them to get them to stop?

 

[Hickson9]

I didn't though - if anything, I drew many lines that lead to this, over many years. You can trace cause and effect back to 2000 under Bush if you care to, or you can go back to Reagan, Jim Crow and so on.

At some point, you have to recognise what the status quo is and that it's not sustainable. It's easy to just write off those at the Capitol as "Nazis" and seek revenge; it's a lot harder to look at the whole and try and remedy the situation that led to it.

Right now the threat to the American Republic is from the Fascists.

Justified protests against racial inequality should be protected. That isn't seeking revenge.

 

[dead_soft]

No it's the opposite - that's how you defeat extremism; by not being extreme in turn.

As for your examples, here's the thing - you can do some of those things and not do all. "Some" is fine - nobody is expecting Biden to be right wing - but "all" is where you enter dangerous territory and inspire rebellion.

It's better to take a bit over many years than trying to take the lot in a year. Because one gets fought back against, the other doesn't.

Is it? You make a lot of grand pronouncements without much in the way of evidence.

So which would you let slide? Prosecuting police officers? Getting rid of racist statues? Better healthcare?

You say a lot about how BLM caused this yet not that the very politics you espouse were the main politics of Western democracies for the last 30 years.

 

[TN Toffee]

It'd be interesting to see the arguments too - I guess they could say it wouldn't be beneficial to the nation for it to happen?

All the arguments would be some version of how the vaguely worded Constitution should be interpreted. The whole government of this nation is based on a 4500ish word document, so that’s basically what all Supreme Court arguments boil down to. What some of the top minds of the 21st century think some of the top minds of the 18th century actually meant.

 

[Hickson9]

Fine, but I am not sure how appealing to their better nature and not calling them Nazis does that. Surely to fix the problems in the South and in the media you'd have to actually do something to them to get them to stop?

The outright Fascists aren't going to come round through talk.

People should take a trip down MAGA twitter. It is a cesspit loaded with conspiracy theories. They're not going to be talked around.

The Fascists need to be eviscerated. All who invaded the Capitol should face serious Federal time.

The door of course needs to be held open for those more Moderate to come back to civil society and the GOP to reconstitute itself as a Conservative Party.