Current Affairs The 2020 United States Presidential Election

[Hickson9]

It's really not a fact. It's an opinion. No one has suggested the Proud Boys woke up one day and decided on a whim. They have been stoked up by Trump and bigots who have a reason for this. They have been getting stoked up for years and then been lied to that an election has been stolen. To try and lay part of the blame on the BLM protests just to support your own beliefs they were wrong is pretty simplistic.

Tubey has a point that these riots didn't happen in a vacuum and are reactive to something.

However, it is ironically a vacuous point as, of course, literally nothing happens in a vacuum and everything is reactive (that is how linear time works).

Equating the BLM "riots" on the streets of the US, motivated by an attempt to throw off the shackles of oppression and racial inequality, with the literal fascist assault on the heart of US democracy motivated by having lost a democratic election, is a spurious line of reasoning.

 

[TN Toffee]

This has gone back years, but yes, Trump's scaremongering about losing the country if Biden gets in etc. wouldn't have been effective if people hadn't had months and months of protests and riots fresh in their minds.

That's just a fact. These actions didn't happen in a vacuum. They were reacting to circumstance.

Okay, fair enough. But from that point, wouldn’t one have to follow the next logical step and continue to work backward from there? BLM was a reaction to a transgression from the right, which was a reaction to some other transgression from the left... ad infinitum. Trying to figure out who wronged who first is a fools errand.

 

[tsubaki]

The attacks on the Capitol were not spontaneous, they were reactive to perceived injustices.

I assume you'd correctly be able to follow how 9/11 occurred due to US foreign policy over many years inspiring radicalism in the middle east, for example. Same principle here - the Capitol attacks didn't happen apropos of nothing, they happened for a reason, a cause that Trump was able to inspire due to the actions of others first.

"Percieved injustices" is BS though, for them and for the people who planned and carried out 9/11. To accept that as a reason you have to accept that because someone says they believe something it makes it valid, no matter how ridiculous the belief is or that they honestly hold it.

There were millions - and thanks to what happened post 9/11 millions more - people whose lives were ruined by US foreign policy in the middle east. They weren't the people who did 9/11 (and aren't the people who carry out most terror attacks now); it was directed by a very rich scion of a family whose wealth came from construction, and carried out by people who hadn't been victimized at all but managed to convince themselves that they were representing something greater than themselves, that they would make up for the failure of their lives by doing this.

The same applies to these fools - look at all the people who've been identified so far, they are either grifters coining it in off "the base" (another odd parallel with al-Qaeda) or relatively well off people (we've had state representatives, former airforce, lawyers, accountants etc). After all, you'd have to be minted to afford the air fare, merch, guns, subscriptions to loon's Patreons, new pickups etc. These people say they are angry because of what? Because "they" aren't in charge any more?

 

[Tubey]

I know what you’ve said. You’ve condemned it like everyone else, how couldn’t you.

What you’re doing now though is offering a defence of their actions by attaching part of the blame to the BLM movement.

Even gone so far to say it’s an actual fact these riots are a reaction to the BLM protests.

I’d say what happened the other night was in the planning for the last two years, long before the BLM protests. It’s all part of the playbook.

No, I didn't just condemn it; I was the first on here to call it for what it was as it was happening.

Right, so... I mean.... That's blatant terrorism, right?

Am I missing something here?

And no, I'm not offering a defence; I'm offering an explanation of the course of events that led to it. I'm not "blaming" BLM, because BLM itself exists because of a course of events that led to that.

These things don't happen in a vacuum, they just don't. There's escalation on top of escalation and it's imperative to recognise that it's not sustainable, just like how the 'Powder Keg of Europe' led to World War 1. If you just keep piling on top out of a misguided desire for revenge or justice, you just make things worse.

That's not about apportioning blame; it's about advocating restraint.

 

[Tubey]

Okay, fair enough. But from that point, wouldn’t one have to follow the next logical step and continue to work backward from there? BLM was a reaction to a transgression from the right, which was a reaction to some other transgression from the left... ad infinitum. Trying to figure out who wronged who first is a fools errand.

That's exactly what I'm saying - exactly that. Hence why I've said several times - "stop fighting fire with fire".

You can't change the past, but you can learn from it and do better in the future. My view is that both sides need to look hard at themselves as well as at the other side, and that's a skill that is increasingly becoming lost.

 

[TN Toffee]

That's exactly what I'm saying - exactly that. Hence why I've said several times - "stop fighting fire with fire".

You can't change the past, but you can learn from it and do better in the future. My view is that both sides need to look hard at themselves as well as at the other side, and that's a skill that is increasingly becoming lost.

Agree with this 100%. It was coming across like you were trying to fully blame BLM for what happened the other day, which I didn’t think was fair at all. I’m not sure how we go about getting everyone to turn the heat down, but we need to figure it out quickly.

 

[Tubey]

"Percieved injustices" is BS though, for them and for the people who planned and carried out 9/11. To accept that as a reason you have to accept that because someone says they believe something it makes it valid, no matter how ridiculous the belief is or that they honestly hold it.

Yes, I think there's a grain of validity in the views of those who support Trump. Their actions are misguided, their views are warped, but underpinning it all is a firm, genuine belief that their way of life is under threat, their jobs could be destroyed and so on.

You don't fight that by calling them stupid; you fight that by listening and easing their concerns to the point they become increasingly irrational.

Al'Qaeda were able to paint the US as world imperialists because of their own actions that constantly reinforced that theory. Similarly, if you have an extreme right wing leader talking about mad left wingers who threaten your way of life, then you see riots on the streets and American symbols being torn down on your TV screen, then guess who suddenly seems a lot more plausible?

Similarly, after the attack on the Capitol, black people will think white people are becoming increasingly racist and, in turn, will be more fearful of white people as a whole. The reality is the vast majority of people aren't going to smash up the Capitol, but you can't blame them for feeling that way due to the images dominating their screens.

As such, every extreme position elevates, and things continue to get worse, month on month, year on year. There has to be an understanding of that moving forward.

 

[dead_soft]

That's exactly what I'm saying - exactly that. Hence why I've said several times - "stop fighting fire with fire".

You can't change the past, but you can learn from it and do better in the future. My view is that both sides need to look hard at themselves as well as at the other side, and that's a skill that is increasingly becoming lost.

'Stop fighting fire with fire' - it's not what was happening. People were rightly angry that black people were killed for being black. The angry Nazis were going to be angry Nazis anyway but you're definite that your views that BLM lead to this (because you really have a bee in your bonnet over those protests) are the only 'facts'.

 

[Tubey]

Agree with this 100%. It was coming across like you were trying to fully blame BLM for what happened the other day, which I didn’t think was fair at all. I’m not sure how we go about getting everyone to turn the heat down, but we need to figure it out quickly.

But... I never did! If you go back and read each of my last few posts from this page onwards - https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/...-states-presidential-election.110947/page-786 - I'm clearly saying, at most, "one act leads to another". That's my whole point.

I mean clearly the BLM protests/riots were reactionary to extreme positions taken by the other side too (e.g. basically Trump existing and cops killing blacks), but it's a perpetual cycle of ever-increasing hate. It has to stop. The answer is when you're in power, don't do what Trump has done and take extreme revenge; be moderate, listen, reconciliate, don't give either side anything to obviously fear.

My hope is that Biden does just that.

 

[tsubaki]

Similarly, after the attack on the Capitol, black people will think white people are becoming increasingly racist and, in turn, will be more fearful of white people as a whole. The reality is the vast majority of people aren't going to smash up the Capitol, but you can't blame them for feeling that way due to the images dominating their screens.

I doubt that very much; the overwhelming response from black communities and certainly black commentators in the US seems to have been a lack of surprise that they (the far right) did it, that they weren't shot for doing it and a belief that they won't be punished for doing it - and contrasting all that with what would have happened if the demonstrators have been black.

Also to say that they'll be "more fearful of white people as a whole" is a bit naive - I mean, if 300 years of slavery, lynchings, riots, criminalization, physical and economic attacks, disproportionate policing, disproportional education, vote suppression, and all the other racist guff didn't already do that then I don't know that this would.

 

[dead_soft]

But... I never did! If you go back and read each of my last few posts from this page onwards - https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/...-states-presidential-election.110947/page-786 - I'm clearly saying, at most, "one act leads to another". That's my whole point.

I mean clearly the BLM protests/riots were reactionary to extreme positions taken by the other side too (e.g. basically Trump existing and cops killing blacks), but it's a perpetual cycle of ever-increasing hate. It has to stop. The answer is when you're in power, don't do what Trump has done and take extreme revenge; be moderate, listen, reconciliate, don't give either side anything to obviously fear.

My hope is that Biden does just that.

What do you mean by 'be moderate, listen, reconciliate, don't give either side anything to obviously fear.' - what would you do here to appease the people who rioted?

 

[BlueDraka]

I have a feeling he will at least be impeached again given the Democratic majority in the House right now, but I doubt it will be before Biden is inaugurated. I’m pretty sure Congress is in recess through the end of next week anyway.

Can he be impeached if he has left office?

 

[Tubey]

I doubt that very much; the overwhelming response from black communities and certainly black commentators in the US seems to have been a lack of surprise that they (the far right) did it, that they weren't shot for doing it and a belief that they won't be punished for doing it - and contrasting all that with what would have happened if the demonstrators have been black.

Also to say that they'll be "more fearful of white people as a whole" is a bit naive - I mean, if 300 years of slavery, lynchings, riots, criminalization, physical and economic attacks, disproportionate policing, disproportional education, vote suppression, and all the other racist guff didn't already do that then I don't know that this would.

Because until the last decade or so, there was an understanding that it was a decreasing minority of whites that were racists on an overt level.

When you see the Capitol draped in actual, verifiable racists, I don't blame black people in thinking the issue is as bad as it was in the Jim Crow era.

Which takes me back to a point I've made over and over again on here - race relations have gone backwards, are currently in the toilet, and in my view the answer to that is to dial back the extremism and the mad rhetoric all over the shop and instead breathe and think.

That comes from having, despite deadsoft's hatred of this term, a "grown up" in power. One who doesn't seek revenge and instead seeks reconciliation.

 

[Hickson9]

The Fascists wouldn't have done Fascist things if it wasn't for the Black people protesting for the right to not be killed by Police Officers.

 

[Tubey]

What do you mean by 'be moderate, listen, reconciliate, don't give either side anything to obviously fear.' - what would you do here to appease the people who rioted?

I've explained my view several times, but it comes down to when in power, don't do things that give extremists something to exploit and spread fear in the populace who hold certain political views.

Biden needs to nudge the political spectrum left, not batter the dial all the way to the left, because one is reasonable, the other results in backlash. Because now is a time to stop burning bridges and be sensible.