Current Affairs The 2020 United States Presidential Election

[Pittsburgh Footy]

Where do you think that attitude comes from?

It's a result of economic reality. They're not aware enough to realise the root cause of their own hardship, so they resort to easy scapegoat targets like race.

People aren't born racist; they're conditioned to it. It's not a coincidence that the poorest areas - those that contribute the least to national GDP - support Trump overwhelmingly and the richest support Biden.

It's class. It's always been class.

Nope. It doesn't. I know a myriad of rich people who are Trumpers. Not just good ol' tax-cutting republicans. I'm talking about race isn't an issue in the US anymore, "they're" taking away our rights, why can't i just say what I want with no consequences Trumpers. Just like the poor ones.

It's not about class. It's never been about class. And I'll re-post the below

Trumpism and republicanism since at least the early to mid-90s has never been about policy or giving the working guy a chance.

It's about culture war stuff

it's always been about culture war stuff

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

Because I don't think people go out and vote a certain way due to racism. Or those that do are a vanishingly small minority. I think people go out and vote for something that tangibly benefits themselves rather than against something.

Is racism in the US real and, well, huge? Of course it is. You'd have to be a simpleton not to realise that. But I don't think you can do much by just saying to people "stop being racist eh?" - you have to tackle the underpinning causes of it.

Here's a simple, undeniable fact - it might feel simplistic, but it's just simply true; if racism was the single biggest, massive, underpinning electoral issue and the reason a load of people vote Republican, Obama never wins the presidency. Sorry but he just doesn't. But he did, because he was simply trusted more on key issues that people cared about more than his skin colour.

For me, it really is all about living standards and class divide. The wealthy Trump support just care about tax breaks, like any Republican - the other stuff with him is all secondary. The poor Trump support simply care about their own lives. There's a subset of racists who'll vote for him, of course there is, but their numbers as a determining factor being that high? Sorry, just don't buy it, same as I don't buy "everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist" - they're simply not; they just voted the same way as the racists.

So turn a blind eye to overt racism just for the tax cuts. Nope, can't get on board with that, and I've had it out with a lot of so-called friends on this issue

 

[Tubey]

So how do you improve the lives of these people if they a) constantly vote against what is genuinely in their best interests and b) subsequently constantly vote for the one party that refuses to make their lives better?

You have an idyllic notion of what to do except that they cannot and will not vote for a Democrat and Republicans have no inkling to make them any better.

Those are the wrong questions. They are subjective to you; it's what you see, but not necessarily what is communicated well to these people.

The right question is "how can the Democrats improve lives for all and not just target set communities with their own identity politics?"

This is a fascinating read: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/biden-sanders-warren-student-debt-climate-b1729934.html

Already, people are demanding he goes all out to support his "base" and ignore everyone else; basically be a left-wing Trump.

For me, that is totally, 100% the wrong approach. Clinton had one thing right; "when they go low, we go high". Go high. Be aspirational. Improve the country as a whole. Have policies that don't discriminate based on who you identify as; simply have policies that discriminate based on how much money and access to social mobility you have. Because if you have both those things now, you don't need any more.

You can do that without socialism. You can simply have fairer capitalism.

 

[Tubey]

Nope. It doesn't. I know a myriad of rich people who are Trumpers. Not just good ol' tax-cutting republicans. I'm talking about race isn't an issue in the US anymore, "they're" taking away our rights, why can't i just say what I want with no consequences Trumpers. Just like the poor ones.

It's not about class. It's never been about class. And I'll re-post the below

Trumpism and republicanism since at least the early to mid-90s has never been about policy or giving the working guy a chance.

It's about culture war stuff

it's always been about culture war stuff

And yet since the mid-90s the uneducated vote has gone steadily and massively to the Republicans, despite in the 90s actually going to the Dems.

But do you know what? You're right. But you know what else? Neither have the Dems.

I’m a Democrat, but I fear the elitism overtaking the party | Sarah Eberspacher

Assuming only racists and sexists are being pushed into the arms of Donald Trump overlooks a huge number of potentially alienated voters

www.theguardian.com

Honestly, read that. An article before the 2016 election that was remarkably prescient. The Dems went elitist - middle America was neglected. They cared about the working man in only some areas of the country - small town America was brushed under the carpet.

They need to redress that, urgently. It's the only way you tackle Trumpism. You have to undermine his base, or it'll just come back again harder than ever before.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

Those are the wrong questions. They are subjective to you; it's what you see, but not necessarily what is communicated well to these people.

The right question is "how can the Democrats improve lives for all and not just target set communities with their own identity politics?"

This is a fascinating read: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/biden-sanders-warren-student-debt-climate-b1729934.html

Already, people are demanding he goes all out to support his "base" and ignore everyone else; basically be a left-wing Trump.

For me, that is totally, 100% the wrong approach. Clinton had one thing right; "when they go low, we go high". Go high. Be aspirational. Improve the country as a whole. Have policies that don't discriminate based on who you identify as; simply have policies that discriminate based on how much money and access to social mobility you have. Because if you have both those things now, you don't need any more.

You can do that without socialism. You can simply have fairer capitalism.

None of what the democrats want can even remotely be construed as socialism, at least by what that term means in other areas of the world.

Fairer capitalism you say? Like regulations for big banks and corporate america? Like ensuring that the richest country in the world can provide health care to all its citizens? Like making sure that poor (mostly) black people in Flint, Michigan have drinkable water? That kind of fairer capitalism?

 

[Tubey]

So turn a blind eye to overt racism just for the tax cuts. Nope, can't get on board with that, and I've had it out with a lot of so-called friends on this issue

It's what people do. It's natural. It's why you have the "shy Tory" phenomenon in the UK, for example. People are generally selfish; they look out for number one, and their families. They can have sympathies for Black Lives Matter and so on, but they won't necessarily give anything up to support it. At best loads of people are indifferent.

The world doesn't act like Twitter. Most people don't "take a side" on things like that. They don't see it as turning a blind eye, as they aren't doing it consciously.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

And yet since the mid-90s the uneducated vote has gone steadily and massively to the Republicans, despite in the 90s actually going to the Dems.

But do you know what? You're right. But you know what else? Neither have the Dems.

I’m a Democrat, but I fear the elitism overtaking the party | Sarah Eberspacher

Assuming only racists and sexists are being pushed into the arms of Donald Trump overlooks a huge number of potentially alienated voters

www.theguardian.com

Honestly, read that. An article before the 2016 election that was remarkably prescient. The Dems went elitist - middle America was neglected. They cared about the working man in only some areas of the country - small town America was brushed under the carpet.

They need to redress that, urgently. It's the only way you tackle Trumpism. You have to undermine his base, or it'll just come back again harder than ever before.

I'm sorry, but I cannot equate the annoyance that Dems' overly PC cancel culture safe space wing of the party is somehow on the same level as what the GOP is undertaking right now. It's NOT two sides of the same coin

 

[Blues Harp]

None of what the democrats want can even remotely be construed as socialism, at least by what that term means in other areas of the world.

Fairer capitalism you say? Like regulations for big banks and corporate america? Like ensuring that the richest country in the world can provide health care to all its citizens? Like making sure that poor (mostly) black people in Flint, Michigan have drinkable water? That kind of fairer capitalism?

There is no "fairer capitalism"
Is there ?

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

There is no "fairer capitalism"
Is there ?

There isn't a country on earth that practices unobstructed pure capitalism. There are regulations everywhere

 

[TN Toffee]

And yet since the mid-90s the uneducated vote has gone steadily and massively to the Republicans, despite in the 90s actually going to the Dems.

The Venn Diagram of “low education voters” and “Christian voters” has considerable overlap. Maybe there’s something there?????

 

[Tubey]

None of what the democrats want can even remotely be construed as socialism, at least by what that term means in other areas of the world.

Fairer capitalism you say? Like regulations for big banks and corporate america? Like ensuring that the richest country in the world can provide health care to all its citizens? Like making sure that poor (mostly) black people in Flint, Michigan have drinkable water? That kind of fairer capitalism?

Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. And yep.

And then more.

But you can do all those things and compromise. You aren't going to get an American NHS, the political reality is against it. So compromise - make inroads. Gradually change the narrative. Small successes add up, and over time the "socialist" idea of universal healthcare doesn't suddenly seem so bad when you can point to countless successes of various initiatives made towards it.

Same with banks and tax breaks for billionaires - you aren't going to fix it in one go. So make inroads. Take a little, redistribute it, then take some more.

The problem with today's society is the "instant results" business - evolution is better than revolution though. Capitalism is broken; so fix it.

 

[riddick]

Those are the wrong questions. They are subjective to you; it's what you see, but not necessarily what is communicated well to these people.

The right question is "how can the Democrats improve lives for all and not just target set communities with their own identity politics?"

This is a fascinating read: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/biden-sanders-warren-student-debt-climate-b1729934.html

Already, people are demanding he goes all out to support his "base" and ignore everyone else; basically be a left-wing Trump.

For me, that is totally, 100% the wrong approach. Clinton had one thing right; "when they go low, we go high". Go high. Be aspirational. Improve the country as a whole. Have policies that don't discriminate based on who you identify as; simply have policies that discriminate based on how much money and access to social mobility you have. Because if you have both those things now, you don't need any more.

You can do that without socialism. You can simply have fairer capitalism.

No, it's not subjective. You thinking its subjective is the problem. Please, explain to me, how can Democrats improve the lives of people when they are not in power to be able to make any of those life changes? The people you are championing that we all need to "improve" don't vote for Democrats; they vote for Republicans. Republicans are most likel going to keep the Senate so that means that any changes the Democratic House and Democratic President wants to make has to go through the Senate where there are, at latest count, 700 bills that have not been voted on because the Republicans there have no interest in governing?

So, again, using your question, how can DEMOCRATS improve lives for all when they aren't the ones that can make these changes?

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. And yep.

And then more.

But you can do all those things and compromise. You aren't going to get an American NHS, the political reality is against it. So compromise - make inroads. Gradually change the narrative. Small successes add up, and over time the "socialist" idea of universal healthcare doesn't suddenly seem so bad when you can point to countless successes of various initiatives made towards it.

Same with banks and tax breaks for billionaires - you aren't going to fix it in one go. So make inroads. Take a little, redistribute it, then take some more.

The problem with today's society is the "instant results" business - evolution is better than revolution though. Capitalism is broken; so fix it.

So what about any of this isn’t what the Dems are trying to do? I mean they aren’t trying to start a revolution.

 

[JimmyJeffers]

There isn't a country on earth that practices unobstructed pure capitalism. There are regulations everywhere

And it can never exist. Would very quickly implode

 

[Tubey]

So what about any of this isn’t what the Dems are trying to do? I mean they aren’t trying to start a revolution.

Opinion: Biden is already letting us down

He’s snubbed Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, walked back promises about student debt, and appointed some disappointing members of staff. The way this is going, the president-elect could end up primaried in 2024

www.independent.co.uk

I've watched countless people on CNN over the last few weeks come on and basically say they expect Biden to declare war on Trumpism by being Trump in reverse. You've got to watch what they're saying with an objective hat on, but it's seriously terrifying how these people believe, truly believe, that now is the time for revenge. It just isn't; it can't be the right answer.

So to criticise Biden for showing restraint and not pandering to "the left" is bonkers to me. It just severely misses the point of why Trump got into power and why the last four years were so atrocious.