The £100m difference

[coyney]

Lets be honest here. The only real difference between the two sides was one Fernando Torres. That guy is something else and his finishing was outstanding. Keeping the ball and so on is nice but in terms of carving out chances they didn't really do much better than us. But for a five minute spell Torres got free of our defence and punished them.

We didn't play well but we had more chances than we carved out in the last derby match, which in case people forget was during our best season for probably 20 years. All this talk of a derby match being unpredictable etc. is I fear stuck in the time when the FA Cup was unpredictable, yet until last year no side outside the top four had won that since us in 1995. Sadly money does play a huge part, which is why we're all here desperately clamouring for someone (anyone) with a bit of cash to buy Kenright out.

There does seem to be an inherent case of short-termism within Evertonians, and perhaps even football fans in general. I am fairly sure that if we rewind 12 months there will have been people on here saying how awful we are and how Yakubu is a waste of money. Yet last season was incredibly successful and Yakubu has proved to be an outstanding purchase.

I have my doubts over our ability to emulate last season, merely because the number of teams competing for that 4/5th spot have increased. I am faily sure however that we will improve on what we're doing right now. It's generally regarded that new players need time to bed in, likewise new tactics. We know that we have new players, some in crucial positions, and prior to the derby we appeared willing to afford them some patience. Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water due to one disappointing performance in the derby.

Likewise with the tactics. For most of this season we've shown that we have ability going forward but have been leaking goals defensively, especially on the counter attack. Is not at least possible that because we're playing a decent team, and a team that is set up to counter attack, that Moyes wanted to revert to last years tactics for this one game? Is it not possible that he realised in the Liege game that we're not quite there yet, and if Liege can cut us open on the counter then Liverpool certainly can? And it almost worked. We didn't boss posession but Liverpool didn't create many chances either. Ordinarily Cahill would have buried his chance. 1-0 up would have changed the game completely. As it is they cut us open and it rattled the defence enough to turn 1 goal into 2 in quick succession.

Losing a derby is always disappointing but rest assured this team will improve. Roll on Thursday and lets get this season on the road.

Spot on Bruce, I cant believe the number of fans not just on here that wont give the new guys time to settle,all I hear is he cost so much or hes getting this amount .it will not make any difference they still have to bed in

 

[TX Bill]

Lets be honest here. The only real difference between the two sides was one Fernando Torres. That guy is something else and his finishing was outstanding. Keeping the ball and so on is nice but in terms of carving out chances they didn't really do much better than us. But for a five minute spell Torres got free of our defence and punished them.

We didn't play well but we had more chances than we carved out in the last derby match, which in case people forget was during our best season for probably 20 years. All this talk of a derby match being unpredictable etc. is I fear stuck in the time when the FA Cup was unpredictable, yet until last year no side outside the top four had won that since us in 1995. Sadly money does play a huge part, which is why we're all here desperately clamouring for someone (anyone) with a bit of cash to buy Kenright out.

There does seem to be an inherent case of short-termism within Evertonians, and perhaps even football fans in general. I am fairly sure that if we rewind 12 months there will have been people on here saying how awful we are and how Yakubu is a waste of money. Yet last season was incredibly successful and Yakubu has proved to be an outstanding purchase.

I have my doubts over our ability to emulate last season, merely because the number of teams competing for that 4/5th spot have increased. I am faily sure however that we will improve on what we're doing right now. It's generally regarded that new players need time to bed in, likewise new tactics. We know that we have new players, some in crucial positions, and prior to the derby we appeared willing to afford them some patience. Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water due to one disappointing performance in the derby.

Likewise with the tactics. For most of this season we've shown that we have ability going forward but have been leaking goals defensively, especially on the counter attack. Is not at least possible that because we're playing a decent team, and a team that is set up to counter attack, that Moyes wanted to revert to last years tactics for this one game? Is it not possible that he realised in the Liege game that we're not quite there yet, and if Liege can cut us open on the counter then Liverpool certainly can? And it almost worked. We didn't boss posession but Liverpool didn't create many chances either. Ordinarily Cahill would have buried his chance. 1-0 up would have changed the game completely. As it is they cut us open and it rattled the defence enough to turn 1 goal into 2 in quick succession.

Losing a derby is always disappointing but rest assured this team will improve. Roll on Thursday and lets get this season on the road.

Rep'd

 

[davek]

We didn't play well but we had more chances than we carved out in the last derby match, which in case people forget was during our best season for probably 20 years. All this talk of a derby match being unpredictable etc. is I fear stuck in the time when the FA Cup was unpredictable, yet until last year no side outside the top four had won that since us in 1995. Sadly money does play a huge part, which is why we're all here desperately clamouring for someone (anyone) with a bit of cash to buy Kenright out..

Does this last paragraph not underline the unpredictability of the Derby?

Is not at least possible that because we're playing a decent team, and a team that is set up to counter attack, that Moyes wanted to revert to last years tactics for this one game? Is it not possible that he realised in the Liege game that we're not quite there yet, and if Liege can cut us open on the counter then Liverpool certainly can? And it almost worked. We didn't boss posession but Liverpool didn't create many chances either. Ordinarily Cahill would have buried his chance. 1-0 up would have changed the game completely. As it is they cut us open and it rattled the defence enough to turn 1 goal into 2 in quick succession.

I notice that Dave Prentice today in the Echo was peddling this very argument about Derby Day unpredictability being 'historical artefact' now because of the class of player and their cost of those players, and the protection players recieve these days.

I'd ask him and others to tell me, then, how we have a much better record of picking up wins and draws against Liverpool than we do against teams of genuine class like Arsenal, United and Chelsea who also have huge resources?

It's an easy trap to fall into hiding behind finances. Sure, if you want to play well over the course of a season and the full run of a cup competition you have to have cash behind you. For a one-off fixture against local rivals - all bets are off. That's still the case, and we'll prove it again and again in the future if the players are focussed, confident and playing to a game plan that respects the opposition whilst forcing the issue. (See the 'Cahill' and 'Johnson' Derbies for further reference).

 

[Nebbiolo]

There does seem to be an inherent case of short-termism within Evertonians, and perhaps even football fans in general. I am fairly sure that if we rewind 12 months there will have been people on here saying how awful we are and how Yakubu is a waste of money. Yet last season was incredibly successful and Yakubu has proved to be an outstanding purchase.

I agree with that. I don't know whether people on this board had problems with Yakubu, but certainly there was a hardcore that were honing in on Yak's lack of work. I wasn't one of those people, just like I'm not one of those that has a pop at any player, or manager, in his first season.

I have my doubts over our ability to emulate last season, merely because the number of teams competing for that 4/5th spot have increased. I am faily sure however that we will improve on what we're doing right now.

I would hope so because the form from pre-season has been dreadful. If we get worse, we're in a relegation dogfight. If we stay the same, lower-table mediocrity awaits. We should improve because we're better than we've been showing. But to do so, we need to reevaluate just what is going on in terms of how the players approach the game and the tactics they're given. Moyes also needs to be more proactive in changing things around when it appears that a specific game plan is failing to pay dividends. He is often late with his substitutions and needs to learn to throw caution to the wind in order to shake things up

It's generally regarded that new players need time to bed in, likewise new tactics. We know that we have new players, some in crucial positions, and prior to the derby we appeared willing to afford them some patience. Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water due to one disappointing performance in the derby.

Agree 100%. Whatever one's feelings on the people brought in, these are our boys now and we need to support them all the way, at least for this season.

Likewise with the tactics. For most of this season we've shown that we have ability going forward but have been leaking goals defensively, especially on the counter attack. Is not at least possible that because we're playing a decent team, and a team that is set up to counter attack, that Moyes wanted to revert to last years tactics for this one game?

That's possible and if we had been poor in just one game, I personally would have no issues with the current state of play at Everton. But we've been poor since pre-season and this is starting to appear like a pattern, not a blip.

Is it not possible that he realised in the Liege game that we're not quite there yet, and if Liege can cut us open on the counter then Liverpool certainly can?

But why did Liege cut us open on the counter? Liege are a good team but they're not in the league of Everton. How is that a team of Belgians, worth probably a fraction of the price of our team, show more confidence than us? They didn't screw us, but they did match us and at our stadium. Like I said, there is a pattern emerging.

Ordinarily Cahill would have buried his chance. 1-0 up would have changed the game completely. As it is they cut us open and it rattled the defence enough to turn 1 goal into 2 in quick succession.

But that's football, Bruce. If X had done Y, then things would have been different. Liverpool could also make a number of claims on what would have happened given a different outcome of event E. The simple fact is that Liverpool deserved victory. The best team won, despite the fact that it hardly got out of second gear.

Losing a derby is always disappointing but rest assured this team will improve. Roll on Thursday and lets get this season on the road.

I hope so, mate. I know Moyes has the potential to turn things around. Whether he really feels inclined to is something for debate. But like I said in my original post, Moyes needs to stop bellyaching about funds and and how green the grass is everywhere else. He needs to get back to doing what he does best, which is motivating each and every man in a blue shirt. It can start on Thursday. If we lose that game, but put in a good performance, then so be it. If we finish mid-table this season, but show signs of passion and endeavour, then that's fine by me. All I ask is that each person at the club does what he is paid to do.

 

[billytoffee]

Disappointed with the tactics on saturday but what he is saying essentially is correct. Money talks im afraid.

Money talks in terms of the depth and quality of the squad - however there remains no excuse for the lack of commitment, drive passion motivation etc.... etc...... being displayed at the moment.

Confidence or lack of confidence aside - it does not cost anything to run your heart out and put up a fight.

 

[Neiler]

The drum I've been beating over the weekend is that, regardless of cash/class in squad, a Derby match is there for the taking for the team that's motivated enough. Since the EPL cash bonanza began we have either won or avoided defeat in roughly 2/3rds of Derby matches. No way, shape or form should a club like ours have that sort of record against a corportation the size of 'Team Liverpool' - we certainly dont have it against the other 3 SKY giants. The Derby is a great leveller. But - and it pains me to quote the horrible little [Poor language removed] - Stevie M€ has it right when he said on Saturday you have to earn the right to play your football. We stood off and admired them instead of rattling into them...almost unbelievable considering we had 5 in the middle and they ran the show with no problems whatsoever.

It isn't an anachronism to suggest Derbies are different, as Bruce Wayne suggests. You just have to aply yourself with discipline and demand your better players raise their game on the day. We wnt through 4 seasons in the 90s doing exactly that and saw them off time after time.

I agree compleatly with that mate, as much as it pains me to say it we were out fought and they deserved the win, thats the second derby in a row we have been beaten for lack of pride and fight, thats really what gets to me about Sat!

 

[coyney]

I agree compleatly with that mate, as much as it pains me to say it we were out fought and they deserved the win, thats the second derby in a row we have been beaten for lack of pride and fight, thats really what gets to me about Sat!

Thats how I saw it too,Dave's remarks about the £millions more spent would have been more valid if someone came off their expensive bench and had won the game as our bench was a lot weaker but that was not the case.his body language of late dose not bode well now according to a Taxi driver its Bill who is delaying the contract so maybe that's what's wrong

 

[Tennessee Blue Mike]

Moyes is just expressing how we all feel at the moment. He just does it in a round about way. Believe me he is feeling the pinch and even him leveraging his contract is falling on deaf ears. Like it or not he is not signing his contract until evidence suggests we have something to work with in the winter window. I think this cloud won't lift until we hear some positive news on that front and the evidence of that will be when he signs in my opinion.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

I didn't see the lack of pride to be honest, I saw a lack of quality, poor tactics and no ambition. Moyes had obviously set us out for the draw. We sat deep, defended for our lives and hoofed the ball away. Liverpool on the other hand controlled, they where intelligent and they waited for the vital moments to kill us off. It had nothing to do with Torres at all, Jagielka had him in his pocket for the majority of the game. There's only so much he can do though, he we keep giving the ball back to Liverpool they are going to keep attacking until they get there chances.

Moyes always makes the money excuse, he always has done in every derby and to be honest it's boring. I've yet to see him go into a Derby or a game against the "Big four" with a plan. It's always Hibbert at right back, Lescott at left back, two defensive midfielders and Cahill dropping deep and helping out. Liverpool on the other hand didn't even use a defensive midfielder, they played Alonso and Gerrard and bossed the game.

He doesn't seem to he learned in this department which is why we rarely give them a game and it's why we always revert to the long ball. His got his strengths as a manager but there's no doubting he is tactically naive and hasn't improved at all in this area.

I want to see some good football to be honest, the football is killing me at the moment and has been for quite a while now.

 

[harry]

Totally agree tb anyone with half a brain new that the team he picked would be negative and play the long ball, so why did he do it? 40k people in the crowd don't hold coaching badges but we all new a liverpool goal was coming unless we changed the formation.
except for our manager who changes it at 0-2!

 

[bobbyrob]

I think we have a confidence problem all the way thru the club,no money,no buyer its filtering down to match day.Moyes is basically saying to BK you get what you pay for.We needed to moved forward after last season and moyes new that,but BK could not deliver with funds for depth and strength.But i still have hope moyes has done it before and he will do it again the glass is half full boys