So, this Syria thing...

[Allezfan]

Cowardice is not a pretty sight. Chemical weapons today, what tomorrow. We will live to regret being led by the nose by limp wristed, politic playing leaders like Miliband. Over 1400 killed by the chemical attack, napalm attack on a school, and now we have given them an open season to continue. I feel ashamed of being British for the first time in my life.........

We've never interfered in foreign civil wars, though.

If you're ashamed of us not getting involved here, why weren't you ashamed during the congo wars or rwanda or the killing fields of cambodia etc, etc.

 

[Ratkiller]

Cowardice is not a pretty sight. Chemical weapons today, what tomorrow. We will live to regret being led by the nose by limp wristed, politic playing leaders like Miliband. Over 1400 killed by the chemical attack, napalm attack on a school, and now we have given them an open season to continue. I feel ashamed of being British for the first time in my life.........

Nothing stopping you heading over and joining those lovely gang of chaps who are fighting assad.

 

[Jib in lad]

Cowardice is not a pretty sight. Chemical weapons today, what tomorrow. We will live to regret being led by the nose by limp wristed, politic playing leaders like Miliband. Over 1400 killed by the chemical attack, napalm attack on a school, and now we have given them an open season to continue. I feel ashamed of being British for the first time in my life.........

Is this a Paddy Ashdown parody .

 

[davek]

The arab permanent residents of the occupied territories aren't israeli citizens and have never wanted to become israeli citizens.

Your argument, as I understood it, is that Israel doesn't count as a democracy because the rights of that democracy are limited along racial lines.

It isn't. It's limited among territorial lines.

Arab citizens of Israel have full legal rights, citizens of territory occupied by israel which it does not claim as israel proper, do not.

You might well as argue that the UK isn't a democracy because we haven't given the right to vote to the occupants of the british indian ocean territory (who like arab residents of the occupied territories have been forcibly deported by their government to make room for military bases).

Israel's influence stretch into the settler's walled towns on the West Bank - the Israeli military stand guard over them as they land grab. Only under their aegis are those places allowed to exist. Ergo: they create and sustain apartheid.

 

[davek]

Cowardice is not a pretty sight. Chemical weapons today, what tomorrow. We will live to regret being led by the nose by limp wristed, politic playing leaders like Miliband. Over 1400 killed by the chemical attack, napalm attack on a school, and now we have given them an open season to continue. I feel ashamed of being British for the first time in my life.........

It wont last too long, dont worry. Britain will soon be up to its elbows in blood again. The Union Jack isn't called the butchers apron for **** all.

 

[Tubey]

Cowardice is not a pretty sight. Chemical weapons today, what tomorrow. We will live to regret being led by the nose by limp wristed, politic playing leaders like Miliband. Over 1400 killed by the chemical attack, napalm attack on a school, and now we have given them an open season to continue. I feel ashamed of being British for the first time in my life.........

Clearly you've never been to Crewe.

 

[fozzy]

 

[peteblue]

We've never interfered in foreign civil wars, though.

If you're ashamed of us not getting involved here, why weren't you ashamed during the congo wars or rwanda or the killing fields of cambodia etc, etc.

You raise good points, but I do not remember a single Westminster vote on any of those issues that publicly showed up the British to the world as cowards. Britain, as an ex imperial power in Africa was basically embarrassed to involve itself in that continent and Cambodia contained no British interests...... We can't do everything, but when we can, and it is in our interest, and we refuse to stand up, then yes, shame is the right word .......

 

[peteblue]

It wont last too long, dont worry. Britain will soon be up to its elbows in blood again. The Union Jack isn't called the butchers apron for **** all.

It's not the issue of fighting or military involvement, these things happen. It's the issue that we effectively voted to wash our hands of this issue and say 'do what you want' we don't care..........

 

[peteblue]

Nothing stopping you heading over and joining those lovely gang of chaps who are fighting assad.

You really don't understand the grown up world do you........

 

[Allezfan]

You raise good points, but I do not remember a single Westminster vote on any of those issues that publicly showed up the British to the world as cowards. Britain, as an ex imperial power in Africa was basically embarrassed to involve itself in that continent and Cambodia contained no British interests...... We can't do everything, but when we can, and it is in our interest, and we refuse to stand up, then yes, shame is the right word .......

Does that matter though pete?

We've chosen not to get involved in massacres before and will do again. Does it matter if we chose not to put it to a vote or if we choose in that vote to get involved?

I mean previous prime ministers haven't put this kind of a thing up to a vote, before because they knew they would lose it, the situation is still the same. Just Cameron misjudged the mood.

I mean we would have been involved in cambodia had Harold Wilson decided to get involved in vietnam when the us asked us to. We didn't so we weren't.

 

[Pat's Van]

Does that matter though pete?

We've chosen not to get involved in massacres before and will do again. Does it matter if we chose not to put it to a vote or if we choose in that vote to get involved?

I mean previous prime ministers haven't put this kind of a thing up to a vote, before because they knew they would lose it, the situation is still the same. Just Cameron misjudged the mood.

I mean we would have been involved in cambodia had Harold Wilson decided to get involved in vietnam when the us asked us to. We didn't so we weren't.

you're making some great points, but not sure if the Cambodian genocide is the best example, I was under the impression that the international community, along with any other countries involved had no idea about what was taking place there (in terms of the atrocoties of the Killing Fields and Tuol Sleng) until the Vietnamese eventually took control...I may well be wrong though

 

[peteblue]

Does that matter though pete?

We've chosen not to get involved in massacres before and will do again. Does it matter if we chose not to put it to a vote or if we choose in that vote to get involved?

I mean previous prime ministers haven't put this kind of a thing up to a vote, before because they knew they would lose it, the situation is still the same. Just Cameron misjudged the mood.

If PM's decide not to get involved, that's fine, we did it with Vietnam and that worked out well. The vote was not a vote to bomb the crap out of Syria but to agree that military force could be used if the deployment of Chemical warfare were proven or without credible doubt. Parliament could have said yes yesterday but still refused when all available data was presented. Saying No at the first hurdle was pure cowardice and Miliband has shown himself up as someone who cannot be trusted nor relied upon. Miliband may think he has been very clever after getting full agreement from Cameron to do all he asked, but then stabbing him in the back, but this just shows him up to be a lightweight who will never be PM.......this is a shameful period for Parliament and Britain......

 

[Allezfan]

you're making some great points, but not sure if the Cambodian genocide is the best example, I was under the impression that the international community, along with any other countries involved had no idea about what was taking place there (in terms of the atrocoties of the Killing Fields and Tuol Sleng) until the Vietnamese eventually took control...I may well be wrong though

When saigon fell to the north vietnamese, phnom penh fell to the khmer rogue and the americans ended up pulling out of indochina, Gerald Ford warned that an unbelievable horror story would happen in cambodia in their absence.

He wasn't believed until the vietnamese invasion proved him right, but he certainly said it would happen.

 

[Pat's Van]

When saigon fell to the north vietnamese, phnom penh fell to the khmer rogue and the americans ended up pulling out of indochina, Gerald Ford warned that an unbelievable horror story would happen in cambodia in their absence.

He wasn't believed until the vietnamese invasion proved him right, but he certainly said it would happen.

predicting it, and knowing that it's currently occurring are two different things though mate

but as I say, it's just the way I understand it, they kept their place in the UN afterwards anyway which just goes to show how messy and self-serving some of these international affairs can be