Roberto Martinez discussion

[bicycleheader]

I read this very carefully and considered your points but taking them in context I would ask what was RM's ambition in going to Wigan and spending 3 years there. Three years for him to try out his style on that club and look what happened, utter failure. Ask any Wigan fan! So you want him to try it out at Everton, what makes you think he will be successful and better than our Ex?

I cannot agree with your comment about Martinez and the players, hoodwink, utter tosh. RM knew what players were at the club, spent three seasons playing against them for heavens sake.

As for our EX, he did provide stability but agreed never quite reached the heights but to dismiss his tenure as you are doing is a bit of an injustice

Well, you´ve started out by calling his time at Wigan an utter failure so you are not exactly being reasonable here.

Whether it is currently going badly, or whether the situation gets worse and BK needs to pull the trigger, doesn´t change the fact that right now we have a new manager trying to change things after 11 years of some other dude who was pretty set in his ways. Most reasonable people would realise this would not be easy, IMO, and would show some patience. The club has not exploded and we are not in the championship. The end of the world is not nigh and a club as big as ours, which recently is constantly threading water, is better served by somebody trying something more ambitious like the current boss, even if he ultimately fails, than by continuing on into the future with a steady eddie which would seem to be the kind of boss mentioned to replace him if he were to go.

again, just my opinion. of course our views are greatly affected by how concerned you are about relegation. I am concerned about performances and confidence, but not relegation. I still see a work in progress.

 

[Ihaters]

4th, in my opinion, we can discount as a fluke. We were nowhere near ready for CL nor did we ever look like cementing ourselves as a top 4 team.

I think the point I'm more making is that under Moyes I never genuinely thought we would finish higher than 6th. I know we did before City and Spurs started spending mega money, but I felt we were always going to be 6th/7th under him as he was so rigid and devoid of flair in his management style.

Don't get me wrong, we could stay with RM and in 5 years be saying the same, remember when we finished 5th? I just don't get that same vibe though under this manager.

Each to their own, but I absolutely enjoy watching this side and it's development ten times more than the drab Mr Moyes served up for a decade. And it's work pointing out, I was one who was genuinely gutted when he left.

I just think Martinez deserves patience, something that was afforded to Moyes.

Both styles had dull and enjoyable times, don't really find Martinez style of waiting 20 minutes to get an attack any more exciting than Moyes get into attack constantly but with no players supporting.
When it went well and players got forward to support, Moyes way was great, when it didn't it was dull, defensive and poor.
When it goes well and a player hits a long shot, or goes on a mazey run and we score, Martinez play is great, when it doesn't. knocking it around our defence, to our midfield and back to our defence is just as dull, if not more so than Moyes way.
I do know though talk of Moyes getting max 6th is a very poor argument anyway you 'feel' about it as its simply not the case.
3 x in 11 seasons he beat that.. that's over a quarter of his seasons with us., and discounting fourth for any reason shows the holes in the argument far more than any I could pick, but its not like he went 15th, 15th, 15th, 4th, 15th is it? We got there on merit and stayed around that area even though we could never quite repeat the feat of beating the billionaires.

We were up with the big boys, but not good enough to challenge them, now we are down with the little boys and barely holding our own against them.

He deserves more patience and will get it, but he deserves stick as well. This season has been a disaster, and he appears to be doing little to improve matters.

We will improve, there is no doubt in my mind, but this is no different than when Moyes had us playing bad at the first half of a season and the stick he got.

 

[bluemangroup]

Some words on the internet.

 

[Ihaters]

Well, you´ve started out by calling his time at Wigan an utter failure so you are not exactly being reasonable here.

Whether it is currently going badly, or whether the situation gets worse and BK needs to pull the trigger, doesn´t change the fact that right now we have a new manager trying to change things after 11 years of some other dude who was pretty set in his ways. Most reasonable people would realise this would not be easy, IMO, and would show some patience. The club has not exploded and we are not in the championship. The end of the world is not nigh and a club as big as ours, which recently is constantly threading water, is better served by somebody trying something more ambitious like the current boss, even if he ultimately fails, than by continuing on into the future with a steady eddie which would seem to be the kind of boss mentioned to replace him if he were to go.

again, just my opinion. of course our views are greatly affected by how concerned you are about relegation. I am concerned about performances and confidence, but not relegation. I still see a work in progress.

I hope your right, but I don't think Martinez is any more flexible than Moyes in his style tbh


Its is way too early for talk of relegation or sacking though

 

[Boss_Blue]

That is garbage tbf. No-one wants Everton not to succeed whoever the manager is. It keeps getting wheeled out as an excuse to have a pop at people someone disagrees with.

Erm...

20-1 still available on relegation as most of you know I've backed us heavily and at big prices. With this cowardly and arrogant manager in charge there is only one way this price will go and that's shorter. I'll be on it again tomorrow morning.

 

[mkrudden]

Both styles had dull and enjoyable times, don't really find Martinez style of waiting 20 minutes to get an attack any more exciting than Moyes get into attack constantly but with no players supporting.
When it went well and players got forward to support, Moyes way was great, when it didn't it was dull, defensive and poor.
When it goes well and a player hits a long shot, or goes on a mazey run and we score, Martinez play is great, when it doesn't. knocking it around our defence, to our midfield and back to our defence is just as dull, if not more so than Moyes way.
I do know though talk of Moyes getting max 6th is a very poor argument anyway you 'feel' about it as its simply not the case.
3 x in 11 seasons he beat that.. that's over a quarter of his seasons with us., and discounting fourth for any reason shows the holes in the argument far more than any I could pick, but its not like he went 15th, 15th, 15th, 4th, 15th is it? We got there on merit and stayed around that area even though we could never quite repeat the feat of beating the billionaires.

We were up with the big boys, but not good enough to challenge them, now we are down with the little boys and barely holding our own against them.

He deserves more patience and will get it, but he deserves stick as well. This season has been a disaster, and he appears to be doing little to improve matters.

We will improve, there is no doubt in my mind, but this is no different than when Moyes had us playing bad at the first half of a season and the stick he got.

There's alot of stuff jumbled up there mate, so just for the sake of continuing the debate im going to cut it up a bit -

don't really find Martinez style of waiting 20 minutes to get an attack any more exciting than Moyes get into attack constantly but with no players supporting.

Perhaps we just see things differently. We were never in control under Moyes. Our play was based on the other team having the ball and then long ball style breaking on them via Fellaini and/or Baines. For me that's why we were so abject at home against the smaller sides. At least under Martinez we keep possession, we probe. Unfortunately at the moment a mixture of form and injuries has meant we havent had the means to be creative in the final third, but i'd much rather be under Martinez's management in these scenarios than under Moyes.

When it went well and players got forward to support, Moyes way was great, when it didn't it was dull, defensive and poor.

It really wasn't though in my opinion.

I remember a goal vs Villa perhaps, at home in one of his last games in charge where we knocked it round and scored by far the best goal under his management - 10 years of management.

Moyes found a good formula style-wise in his very last season, and again it was built upon Baines and Fellaini. Don't you remember the endless discussion of "shut Baines down and you shut down Everton's threat"? He was very rigid tactically. You can't fault the man defensively, but every player was shackled offensively - for further proof point to every single striker he brought in. Do you think it's a co-incidence that all of them were flops?

I do know though talk of Moyes getting max 6th is a very poor argument anyway you 'feel' about it as its simply not the case.
3 x in 11 seasons he beat that.. that's over a quarter of his seasons with us., and discounting fourth for any reason shows the holes in the argument far more than any I could pick, but its not like he went 15th, 15th, 15th, 4th, 15th is it? We got there on merit and stayed around that area even though we could never quite repeat the feat of beating the billionaires.

Finishing 4th was absolutely brilliant for us. And yes, you're right, we got there on merit. Don't you remember that season though, the 1-0 winning run? It wasn't built on any sort of flair, and the game moved on leaps and bounds every season after that year - it still is evolving. Genuinely - do you think that if Moyes had been given 10 more years he would ever have got us 4th again? My "feelings" are that Martinez will, but yes I have said earlier that we might be calling the 5th last year a fluke. The difference I think is that again last year we were in control of everything, we took the games to Arsenal, Utd, Liverpool at home etc whereas under Moyes we defended resolutely and continued to "pinch" points. Yes it meant we finished 4th, but i think we all knew that year we would get found out in the CL had we qualified and we it was unlikely we would finish 4th again the next season playing the same. We needed to evolve and we couldnt under Moyes.

 

[bicycleheader]

Both styles had dull and enjoyable times, don't really find Martinez style of waiting 20 minutes to get an attack any more exciting than Moyes get into attack constantly but with no players supporting.
When it went well and players got forward to support, Moyes way was great, when it didn't it was dull, defensive and poor.
When it goes well and a player hits a long shot, or goes on a mazey run and we score, Martinez play is great, when it doesn't. knocking it around our defence, to our midfield and back to our defence is just as dull, if not more so than Moyes way.
I do know though talk of Moyes getting max 6th is a very poor argument anyway you 'feel' about it as its simply not the case.
3 x in 11 seasons he beat that.. that's over a quarter of his seasons with us., and discounting fourth for any reason shows the holes in the argument far more than any I could pick, but its not like he went 15th, 15th, 15th, 4th, 15th is it? We got there on merit and stayed around that area even though we could never quite repeat the feat of beating the billionaires.

We were up with the big boys, but not good enough to challenge them, now we are down with the little boys and barely holding our own against them.

He deserves more patience and will get it, but he deserves stick as well. This season has been a disaster, and he appears to be doing little to improve matters.

We will improve, there is no doubt in my mind, but this is no different than when Moyes had us playing bad at the first half of a season and the stick he got.

currently. Its not his style to have us pass poorly around defence and midfield....it is just not currently working. He is not choosing this.

I wouldn´t overjudge him right now personally, as I think this season will just be part of a relatively long time at the club. We will see at the end how its been.

Same as I wouldn´t judge Moyes on his worst season, I´d judge him on the overall.

 

[Ihaters]

currently. Its not his style to have us pass poorly around defence and midfield....it is just not currently working. He is not choosing this.

I wouldn´t overjudge him right now personally, as I think this season will just be part of a relatively long time at the club. We will see at the end how its been.

Same as I wouldn´t judge Moyes on his worst season, I´d judge him on the overall.

Im not really to be honest, but I found last season frequently dull as well, we scored some lovely goals, but the endless short passing game bored me, even when Spain won the cup with it, and we're never going to be that good at it.

Just my opinion. Its nice to have the ball, just wish we would do more with it.

And yes it will improve, this long run is depressing and clouding my judgement of what is possible perhaps.

 

[Goat]

I dont even care about this waste of oxygen anymore.

I just wanna see Everton doing the football.

FFS

 

[Ihaters]

Perhaps we just see things differently. We were never in control under Moyes. Our play was based on the other team having the ball and then long ball style breaking on them via Fellaini and/or Baines. For me that's why we were so abject at home against the smaller sides. At least under Martinez we keep possession, we probe. Unfortunately at the moment a mixture of form and injuries has meant we havent had the means to be creative in the final third, but i'd much rather be under Martinez's management in these scenarios than under Moyes.

What was weird was that it was so easy to stop us, and everyone found us out, yet we finished 4th-8th every season. We couldn't beat the little teams, we couldn't beat the big teams and still we finished in or around Europe season after season, what gives?

As for injuries and form, Moyes had those issues too, if Martinez is as good at Moyes at turning those around we'll be fine.

It really wasn't though in my opinion.

I remember a goal vs Villa perhaps, at home in one of his last games in charge where we knocked it round and scored by far the best goal under his management - 10 years of management.

I remember Ozzys goal in Europe better tbh, Rooneys introduction strike against Arsenal, McFaddens against Borough, lots of team goals, I remember dying seconds against Bolton and Baines knocking a player over on the touch line, winning the ball and giving it to Beckford.. bang.. result. Theres a load of examples of great goals, hell there's probably a good one under Walker if you look though lol. Too far?

Moyes found a good formula style-wise in his very last season, and again it was built upon Baines and Fellaini. Don't you remember the endless discussion of "shut Baines down and you shut down Everton's threat"? He was very rigid tactically. You can't fault the man defensively, but every player was shackled offensively - for further proof point to every single striker he brought in. Do you think it's a co-incidence that all of them were flops?

Cant argue he was tactically rigid, but he spent a lot of time trying to fix our right hand side so he could open us up a bit and failing, closest he got was putting Coleman on the wing. AVM, Davies, Billy, Drenthe.. just not good at signing right wingers I guess lol. At least we have Martinez now who bought us... Atsu? oh ffs.
Still at least we got Mirallas, and that is largely why we did so well imo, suddenly we opened the other side of the pitch, but Moyes was in a one chance situation, sign a player that wasn't good enough, had to wait to sell him before he could replace.

Finishing 4th was absolutely brilliant for us. And yes, you're right, we got there on merit. Don't you remember that season though, the 1-0 winning run? It wasn't built on any sort of flair, and the game moved on leaps and bounds every season after that year - it still is evolving. Genuinely - do you think that if Moyes had been given 10 more years he would ever have got us 4th again? My "feelings" are that Martinez will, but yes I have said earlier that we might be calling the 5th last year a fluke. The difference I think is that again last year we were in control of everything, we took the games to Arsenal, Utd, Liverpool at home etc whereas under Moyes we defended resolutely and continued to "pinch" points. Yes it meant we finished 4th, but i think we all knew that year we would get found out in the CL had we qualified and we it was unlikely we would finish 4th again the next season playing the same. We needed to evolve and we couldnt under Moyes.

Agree with that, but Im not convinced we will evolve to perform better in terms of points, even if we improve our play tbh.. I hope so, and he gets a lot of time from me, no witch hunt here, but so far we are in decline not transition and nothing is changing.

 

[davek]

Agree with that, but Im not convinced we will evolve to perform better in terms of points, even if we improve our play tbh.. I hope so, and he gets a lot of time from me, no witch hunt here, but so far we are in decline not transition and nothing is changing.

He failed to deal clinically with the squad this summer. I think that's when he lost the chance to move on and consolidate what we had last season.

It's just poor judgement to have retained Distin, Osman, Hibbert and to have expected Barry to do the same job he did last season. He also left us short out wide and failed to move for a playmaker.

I cant see him making the same mistake again next summer. If he does I think I'd have to withdraw support for him.

 

[TheFinnFan]

He failed to deal clinically with the squad this summer. I think that's when he lost the chance to move on and consolidate what we had last season.

It's just poor judgement to have retained Distin, Osman, Hibbert and to have expected Barry to do the same job he did last season. He also left us short out wide and failed to move for a playmaker.

I cant see him making the same mistake again next summer. If he does I think I'd have to withdraw support for him.

barks wont be here then so he will adress that area for sure.

 

[Ihaters]

He failed to deal clinically with the squad this summer. I think that's when he lost the chance to move on and consolidate what we had last season.

It's just poor judgement to have retained Distin, Osman, Hibbert and to have expected Barry to do the same job he did last season. He also left us short out wide and failed to move for a playmaker.

I cant see him making the same mistake again next summer. If he does I think I'd have to withdraw support for him.

Agree with that, also the pre season was a mess, I'm sure the w/c played its part, but hopeful of an improved start to that too.

Don't think anyone could of guessed at just how badly Barry dipped though tbf, he was a monster last season.

 

[mkrudden]

He failed to deal clinically with the squad this summer. I think that's when he lost the chance to move on and consolidate what we had last season.

It's just poor judgement to have retained Distin, Osman, Hibbert and to have expected Barry to do the same job he did last season. He also left us short out wide and failed to move for a playmaker.

I cant see him making the same mistake again next summer. If he does I think I'd have to withdraw support for him.

Yeah I think he deserves this summer at least to tinker.

i disagree with you regarding Osman, Hibbert and Distin though.

Distin had arguably his best season for us last year, Hibbert has been a decent stop gap for us in games this season and Osman is an effective impact sub.

Had he binned those 3 then thats 3 more positions he would have had to pay to find solutions for, meaning that the deal for Lukaku probably wouldnt have happened.

Back on point tho - let's judge him come close of summer window.

 

[squonk]

barks wont be here then so he will adress that area for sure.

what's this about Barkley not being here ?