Current Affairs Rail strikes

[Bruce Wayne]

I'm going to kindly presume you are deliberately misunderstanding the point.

I will say it again. People are already leaving and it is proving disastrous right across the public sector.

There is no way to provide a good service with ever worsening pay.

Are you happy with the state of public services?

Also, I can't negotiate my own pay offer. Government sets it centrally.

I don't have any doubt at all that public services are struggling and that they, along with other parts of the economy, are having great difficulty attracting staff. Here is the thing though. Public sector pay has historically been above that of the private sector. Maybe some would call further demands "entitled", but to take the NHS as an example, the pay demand from the nurses union would cost in the region of £9bn, or 5% of the entire NHS budget. Since the creation of the NHS, the average increase in its budget is about 3.5%, so not only would paying the nurses what the union is demanding means that the service wouldn't even be able to carry on as it is, but it would have to cut back in some way in order to afford it. Is that what you mean by improving public services?

Even if real pay is cut by 5%, public sector workforce may need to be cut by more than 200,000 by 2024 to stay within current spending plans | Institute for Fiscal Studies

Public sector workers will receive pay awards of around 5% this year, on average.

ifs.org.uk

 

[Hickson9]

I don't have any doubt at all that public services are struggling and that they, along with other parts of the economy, are having great difficulty attracting staff. Here is the thing though. Public sector pay has historically been above that of the private sector. Maybe some would call further demands "entitled", but to take the NHS as an example, the pay demand from the nurses union would cost in the region of £9bn, or 5% of the entire NHS budget. Since the creation of the NHS, the average increase in its budget is about 3.5%, so not only would paying the nurses what the union is demanding means that the service wouldn't even be able to carry on as it is, but it would have to cut back in some way in order to afford it. Is that what you mean by improving public services?

Even if real pay is cut by 5%, public sector workforce may need to be cut by more than 200,000 by 2024 to stay within current spending plans | Institute for Fiscal Studies

Public sector workers will receive pay awards of around 5% this year, on average.

ifs.org.uk

The "demands" are for pay to stay the same in real terms rather than see a further massive decrease after a decade of ever worsening pay, and at a time when retention is horrendous. That isn't entitled in the slightest.

The public sector has been run into the ground and that has to stop, otherwise we'll continue to have horrendous public services. Telling people to just leave isn't a solution to that (obviously).

As you can see from the bottom graph, the public sector tends to be better educated, older etc. than the private sector but even taking into account those disparities it is now paid worse. It also shows how pay has been spiralling downwards since 2010.

The Tories have chosen to do this over a long period of time. It wasn't and isn't a case of affordability.

Government budgeting is a complex topic and one I don't want to get into here with someone I presume is ignorant of it (what sector do you work in?).

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The "demands" are for pay to stay the same in real terms rather than see a further massive decrease after a decade of ever worsening pay, and at a time when retention is horrendous. That isn't entitled in the slightest.

The public sector has been run into the ground and that has to stop, otherwise we'll continue to have horrendous public services. Telling people to just leave isn't a solution to that (obviously).

As you can see from the bottom graph, the public sector tends to be better educated, older etc. than the private sector but even taking into account those disparities it is now paid worse. It also shows how pay has been spiralling downwards since 2010.

The Tories have chosen to do this over a long period of time. It wasn't and isn't a case of affordability.

Government budgeting is a complex topic and one I don't want to get into here with someone I presume is ignorant of it (what sector do you work in?).

What the graphs show is that when taking into account age, education, and so on, that public sector workers have enjoyed a pay premium over private sector workers for at least the last 30 years. If the shoe is on the other foot right now then it's the first time in decades. And that's before taking into account final salary pensions etc., which are unheard of in the private sector but still common in the public.

It's quite probable that public sector workers will get a pay rise, and there's a strong argument that the tax take will rise significantly with inflation so it could be afforded, but I will say that this pay rise isn't going to make public services any better (it may not make them worse). That's a central concern around the stagflationary predictions at the moment, that things are getting more expensive but productivity is continuing to flatline, as it has for yonks, and so we get the worst of both worlds.

 

[Hickson9]

What the graphs show is that when taking into account age, education, and so on, that public sector workers have enjoyed a pay premium over private sector workers for at least the last 30 years. If the shoe is on the other foot right now then it's the first time in decades. And that's before taking into account final salary pensions etc., which are unheard of in the private sector but still common in the public.

It's quite probable that public sector workers will get a pay rise, and there's a strong argument that the tax take will rise significantly with inflation so it could be afforded, but I will say that this pay rise isn't going to make public services any better (it may not make them worse). That's a central concern around the stagflationary predictions at the moment, that things are getting more expensive but productivity is continuing to flatline, as it has for yonks, and so we get the worst of both worlds.

I can see you're not going to be shifted in your opinions about public sector pay and striking.

What do you do (presumably in the private sector)?

What's happened with pay and conditions?

 

[Charro]

Maybe more people in the private sector should unionise and get a better deal then.

I think the majority of people in the country, from the public and private sector haven’t got a fair deal in regards to pay and working conditions.

 

[ChesterBlue]

Maybe more people in the private sector should unionise and get a better deal then.

I think the majority of people in the country, from the public and private sector haven’t got a fair deal in regards to pay and working conditions.

That’s the best way to look at it, instead of just saying “my pay is crap and my employers rinse me too” people should be supporting their fellow workers, and also unionising and demanding better pay and conditions themselves.

 

[HSWR]

Its been great privatisation Joe.
Rail third more investment than BR, now a joke,
Companies just taking profit then getting out when they fail to give a service.
Water, pouring poo into are waters on an industrial scale.
Electricity, well let's not even go there, we prop up Companies that have gone bust and pay a high price for it.
Doctors surgery , run as a business,
Shocking service, can't see a doctor
And on it goes.
We used to have the power to have a say in all this ,
Now all sold at the alter of profit for the rich.
Has it made cheaper and better service anywhere in reality?
Thatcher , had wars, terrorism, winter of discontented, country total national debt 80,billion pound.
Now after there grand experiment it's trillions.
No library's
No local youth clubs.
People left in corridors in hospital ect
People on zero hours contracts all over the show.
The rich getting richer, and the only thing growing is poverty for the rest.
Privatisation was a con and continued to this day as one.
Anyone who can't see it is either daft or doesn't want to see it for there own ends.

What is not often reported but is completely true is the massive issues caused by the pandemic has benefitted the private healthcare sector considerably. Many patients have been seen privately even if they are in the NHS system.

The unfortunate truth is that quite often , the consultants seeing the private patients are the same who are not seeing them in the NHS as they work in both sectors so during the pandemic they were still making a considerable amount of money and many patients now jump the queue from private to NHS making only NHS patients wait longer.

So if the nurses want to strike because of their pay , people should be more mindful that the consultants and doctors have not missed a penny during this time whilst the NHS staff are being underpaid. Much of the health service has been privatised but the actual consultants themselves haven't missed out. Asking the staff to do the work of 2 people in these conditions whilst the highest paid do not get affected is typical conservative mind set and questioning their passion to strike over it is a worrying mindset to see anyone have.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I can see you're not going to be shifted in your opinions about public sector pay and striking.

What do you do (presumably in the private sector)?

What's happened with pay and conditions?

I've worked with various government departments in the UK and EU, as well as the NHS, so have nothing against the public sector nor those that work in it. I'm just questioning the narrative that giving people a hefty pay rise will make things better. Ordinarily speaking, pay should rise when productivity rises, which hasn't been happening for a really long time, hence why pay has stagnated. We're in a position now where short-term factors are driving up inflation and people are expecting a huge pay rise that isn't at all linked to productivity, which won't change as anything that actually influences productivity is not changing.

As mentioned before, I'm a freelancer so things ebb and flow. Sometimes good, sometimes not so good.

 

[Hickson9]

I've worked with various government departments in the UK and EU, as well as the NHS, so have nothing against the public sector nor those that work in it. I'm just questioning the narrative that giving people a hefty pay rise will make things better. Ordinarily speaking, pay should rise when productivity rises, which hasn't been happening for a really long time, hence why pay has stagnated. We're in a position now where short-term factors are driving up inflation and people are expecting a huge pay rise that isn't at all linked to productivity, which won't change as anything that actually influences productivity is not changing.

As mentioned before, I'm a freelancer so things ebb and flow. Sometimes good, sometimes not so good.

In the private sector that theory will work fine most of the time but my pay isn't linked to productivity nor profit and keeping it in line with inflation isn't a pay rise (i.e. my 3% pay rise means I've seen a huge pay cut after a decade of pay decreases).

I'm being paid hundreds of pounds a month less than the comparative pay last year, as is my partner. Between us we're down by about £500-£600 a month in our pocket, plus the hit to our pensions which will be felt every year until we retire.

For context, we are both senior officials on Whitehall.

If it carries on for the next couple of years then I'll go and join a consultancy or similar, for significantly more pay and still based in Westminster, like a fair few of my friends have already - and Whitehall will continue to decline in quality (I dread running recruitments nowadays).

This isn't some narrative by the way. I've been living the decline for a long time and it is directly linked to how much pay has been eroded.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

In the private sector that theory will work fine most of the time but my pay isn't linked to productivity nor profit and keeping it in line with inflation isn't a pay rise (i.e. my 3% pay rise means I've seen a huge pay cut after a decade of pay decreases).

I'm being paid hundreds of pounds a month less than the comparative pay last year, as is my partner. Between us we're down by about £500-£600 a month in our pocket, plus the hit to our pensions which will be felt every year until we retire.

For context, we are both senior officials on Whitehall.

If it carries on for the next couple of years then I'll go and join a consultancy or similar, for significantly more pay and still based in Westminster, like a fair few of my friends have already - and Whitehall will continue to decline in quality (I dread running recruitments nowadays).

This isn't some narrative by the way. I've been living the decline for a long time and it is directly linked to how much pay has been eroded.

It wasn't a narrative from you but more in general I know a lot of pay in the civil service is based more on seniority than capability or output, which isn't ideal, but presumably you must have some means by which your productivity is measured? You certainly would be in the consultancy world. I remember from my time with Go-Science in BEIS that it was stuffed full of very, very smart people but to say they weren't exactly pushed hard would perhaps be quite kind. One bloke would often be asleep at his desk, and not in an Elon Musk kind of way.

 

[Hickson9]

It wasn't a narrative from you but more in general I know a lot of pay in the civil service is based more on seniority than capability or output, which isn't ideal, but presumably you must have some means by which your productivity is measured? You certainly would be in the consultancy world. I remember from my time with Go-Science in BEIS that it was stuffed full of very, very smart people but to say they weren't exactly pushed hard would perhaps be quite kind. One bloke would often be asleep at his desk, and not in an Elon Musk kind of way.

I'm juggling lots of different large projects, which have various milestones, risks etc.

But no, my performance isn't linked in the slightest way to my pay.

We have small in-year one off bonuses you can be recommended for, separate to base salary. That's it.

 

[Ivo]

What the graphs show is that when taking into account age, education, and so on, that public sector workers have enjoyed a pay premium over private sector workers for at least the last 30 years. If the shoe is on the other foot right now then it's the first time in decades. And that's before taking into account final salary pensions etc., which are unheard of in the private sector but still common in the public.

It's quite probable that public sector workers will get a pay rise, and there's a strong argument that the tax take will rise significantly with inflation so it could be afforded, but I will say that this pay rise isn't going to make public services any better (it may not make them worse). That's a central concern around the stagflationary predictions at the moment, that things are getting more expensive but productivity is continuing to flatline, as it has for yonks, and so we get the worst of both worlds.

What the graphs don't show is that starting pay in the private sector is lower than that of the public sector. If you think about the lower paid jobs out there none of them are public sector roles. The cleaners, caterers etc. that the public sector use are all out sourced, like probably 100 percent of them. You can't compare like for like with these jobs because there's nothing to compare with in the public sector. It's a pointless comparison, and you probably knew that but it doesn't fit your agenda.

 

[TommyDavo]

What the graphs don't show is that starting pay in the private sector is lower than that of the public sector. If you think about the lower paid jobs out there none of them are public sector roles. The cleaners, caterers etc. that the public sector use are all out sourced, like probably 100 percent of them. You can't compare like for like with these jobs because there's nothing to compare with in the public sector. It's a pointless comparison, and you probably knew that but it doesn't fit your agenda.

So maybe the public sector could endeavour to somehow get the very low paid private sector decent wages and conditions. The low paid private sector cannot afford the loss of earning through strikes

 

[Ivo]

So maybe the public sector could endeavour to somehow get the very low paid private sector decent wages and conditions. The low paid private sector cannot afford the loss of earning through strikes

I can't afford to go on strike either. But I will do because it's for a greater cause.

How would you like me to endeavour to get the lowest paid private sector decent wages and conditions? This shouldn't be a race to the bottom, I don't see why it needs to be private vs public sector.

 

[Hickson9]

So maybe the public sector could endeavour to somehow get the very low paid private sector decent wages and conditions. The low paid private sector cannot afford the loss of earning through strikes

How?...

If you can't answer then you've just typed out nonsense.