Moyes Watch @ Real Sociedad

[davek]

Yes I think all of that has proven to be the case. The premier league when he was operating was in terms of excitement a very poor league. You probably had 14 or 15 clubs who were little more than championship clubs just looking to stay in the league. At the other end you then had 4 teams who were amongst the top 10 teams in the world. It was a complete monopoly and any one of the top 4 back then would probably walk the league now.
Obviously the strength of the top 4 teams gave the league an excitement and buzz to Sky in particular, who's base is largely made up of their fans as they competed to win every trophy going for a 5 or 6 year period. Outside of them though it was a dull league not too dissimilar to Scotland.

That was the context Moyes thrived in. He knew the logical limits of what he could do, which was make as few mistakes as possible, don't get distracted by cup competitions and look to be as close to the best of the rest as possible. Nobody minded as the people who run the league (execs at Sky) had no requirement for more competition to the top 4. It provided more than enough entertainment. 4 sides going for the title with 8 sides in a mass relegation scrap. This always afforded Moyes a level of respect in the game he may not have been due.

Where I think football has moved on in the Premier league is more egalitarian now. However just standing still and being consistent will only get you so far. If you look at how your Palace's, Southamptons or Leicester's are attacking this season there is a different approach.

I think Moyes is of a very particular time. His biggest mistake was not moving on once he established Everton are a top 6 team for another challenge. It may have stopped him getting stuck in a certain way of thinking.

Spot on overview mate.

 

[Saint Domingo]

The Peter Principle applies to Moyes. Promoted above his talents.

On reflection, Moyes was always a very good Championship level manager. Disciplined, defensively good, emphasis on hard work, but limited in their tactical awareness. In essence he took over at Everton when we were, in all but name, a Championship level club. We'd been flirting with that level for years, so it was a good fit for Moyes and us. He came in and made us a very good Championship quality team that competed well above any right it had to expect (with the blip second season left out of the equation). I've always believed the PL (especially back then) to never be of the quality its always afforded. Any club offering a lot of effort and discipline can achieve a fair bit. He got that out of our players and he got a lot of leeway from owners who were not ambitious (on or off the field). It was perfect for him. As soon as he left Everton though he had to show his own coaching credentials (and man management credentials at clubs with players unwilling to just accept his view of things and a discipline oriented regime).

He's what we all suspected him of being when he was here: a bog standard manager with a good eye for a bargain and an ability to impose discipline...but only at a certain type/level of football club.

Really? So the prem when Moyes was in it was weaker than it is now, and he effectively took what was only a championship level team to repeated European qualification? This is ludicrous. The fact you can't even recognise any quality of his beyond his ability to organise is a sad state of bitterness so long after he's gone.

Let's look at some of these so called championship teams he finished ahead of during his time in the prem:

Liverpool on three occasions, one of which they then won the Champions league, the other two seasons they had Suarez upfront with Dalglish and then Rodgers spending millions on the squad. Where these teams championship sides? Suarez, Gerrard, Carragher, Reina, Sturridge, Lucas are these championship players?

Villa under O'Neill: Petrov, Downing, Barry (so good he's apparently still essential to our side 8 years later) Milner (now at Liverpool) Young (at United). Agbonlahor, Heskey - never finished ahead of Moyes' championship side. Are these players championship standard?

Several iterations of Spurs teams under Jol, Ramos, AVB, Moyes' championship team finished ahead of them.

Portsmouth hugely inflated by spending money they didn't have on Campbell, Distin (so good he played for us for another 6 years) Defoe Crouch Krancjar etc. Half of these players are still in the premier league 8 years later! Of course Moyes' championship side finished ahead of them.

Not even mentioned a Newcastle side who were European regulars pre Moyes and had players like Shearer, Robert, Solano etc. Then Owen, Smith, Emre, Nzogbia, Given. City spending millions under Sven.

In this same period you had the premier leagues best ever performance in Europe between 05 and 2012 with Liverpool United and Chelsea winning it with multiple finalists and semi finalists every year. We can't even make a dent in Europe now. You had Fergusons United, Mourinho's Chelsea, Wengers invincibles and Liverpool under Rafael with two champs league finals. Yet you think the current crop are better?

Finally a quick look at some of the players Moyes assembled in his 'championship' squads over the years: Baines, Jagielka, Lescott, Stones all England internationals, Baines in team of the season, Stones valued at 40 mill, Lescott went for 26 mill to a team who became champions. Arteta -sold to Arsenal, Fellaini to United for 27 mill (still a member of LVGs squad), Pienaar -good enough for Spurs to buy him, us to get him back and Martinez to wait for him even at 34, Yakubu- one of the prem's record goal scorers, Cahill - World Cup legend, shortlist for ballon dor, Coleman -team of the season, prem's best right back. Mirallas - Belgian international, still in Martinez's squad.

The list goes on and on. All of Martinez's first choice back 5 are Moyes' players. Is this a championship back 5?

With one hand you claim that Moyes benefitted from a board with zero ambition. When Martinez was under pressure you called it the Everton way to stick with their managers and claimed 8th would be a good season. Moyes had his 'championship' team higher than that. Mind you the prem is more difficult now what with newly promoted teams like Southampton Leicester and West Ham so easily moving up the table.

You know that the judgement you have made this time on Moyes is utterly delusional. He didn't win anything fact, but after that your views on his footballing style are extremely subjective and not backed up by league placings. Arguing we had a championship squad in the weakest decade of the prem's history is frankly embarrassing.

 

[davek]

Truth, DaveK - as in Ministry of Truth, records division.

Problem with calling Moyes a championship level coach is it creates a vast middle ground that is almost completely empty - ie who are the good premiership level coaches? Obv not talking about Ferguson, Mourinho, Wenger, Ancellotti - they're great premiership level coaches. Mancini and Pellegrini aren't at that level but they're title winners. It's a long way from title-winning level down to championship level, so you should have fifty names off the cuff who fit the bill of good prem coaches superior to Moyes. Reality is you'd struggle to name five, because so few people have won trophies in the prem era outside of the richest four clubs.

That's a fair point, I suppose. There's no tangible metric that can elevate some of the non-trophy winning managers outside the elite above each other. Perhaps, though, the lack of tactical awareness I attribute to him - which is the basis of his 'Championship manager' credentials, as far as I'm concerned - is manifest in the number of times he failed to come to task with defeating the elite clubs of the league in the time he was here. Apart from a strangle hold over Mancini's City, it was pretty dire with no wins registered away and very few at home in the whole 11 year period.

To me, he was a manager who emphasised the physical fitness side of the game and crunching the numbers on the opposition - something that gets a decent manager only so far.

 

[davek]

http://worldsoccertalk.com/2015/11/...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
David Moyes sacking from Real Sociedad creates a unique opportunity for several Major League Soccer (MLS) clubs to bring in a high level manager from abroad, one who understands the American game and player more than most. The former Everton boss has spent more time in the United States and around American players than just about any other European-based manager. While Moyes would be a good hire for just about any club in England or his native Scotland, he’s proven all he can in the United Kingdom. Unless he relishes a relegation fight with a Sunderland-like club or the media scrutiny that would come should he return to a more-aspirational English club, his best bet might be coming over to the United States, a nation which he has developed a unique understand of from a soccer standpoint.

Moyes interest in American players began when he managed Preston North End in the second tier of English football. He attracted Eddie Lewis and Brian McBride to the club. Lewis was bought permanently from Fulham while McBride was brought in on loan from MLS. After Moyes moved to Everton, he again arranged a loan deal for McBride, but finances did not allow him to sign the striker, who eventually moved to Fulham on a permanent basis. Moyes twice brought in Landon Donovan on loan to Everton and managed Tim Howard for seven seasons. He also brought his team to the United States often for preseason training, playing in friendly matches against MLS and United Soccer League teams on several occasions. In those matches, Moyes was able to experiment with tactics and evaluate players. Coming home from the United States, often times Everton would start Premier League season’s slowly but get stronger as time wore on, showing tactical discipline and incredible levels of fitness that was honed in the hot American summer sun.

The budgetary limitations on Moyes at Everton forced him to develop an extensive scouting network in the Americas. Through this network, Moyes brought several players from Latin America, the types of which MLS now targets in this age of increased league budgets. FC Dallas, who advanced to the MLS conference finals last night, is a clear example of how you can build a club by eschewing big name European-based designated players and mix homegrown talent with superior scouting in Latin America. Moyes also brought two American players in the late 2000’s from USL’s Premier Development League division to Everton, though neither stuck long-term with the club. But Moyes had the willingness to scout lower division US games and implement the infrastructure, including a unique partnership between Everton and Sports Interactive (the maker of Football Manager) to find data on players in more obscure leagues, including USL.
....
The former Everton boss owns a home in Naples, Fla., and has often been spotted during the summers on American soil even before the preseason for European clubs begins. As MLS gets more serious about its international profile and growing the respect the league has abroad, Moyes would be a home run hire for some club in the league. Very few Managers have the knowledge of the American scene, the tactical savvy and the high-level European club experience to manage in Major League Soccer. In fact, the list might be down to just one manager, and that is David Moyes, who now finds himself available on the job market. With MLS’s offseason just beginning for so many clubs, this would be the time to pull trigger.

Did anyone else immediately think: 'we can get rid of Howard'?

 

[LinekersLegs]

Did anyone else immediately think: 'we can get rid of Howard'?

I didn't, but now can't stop thinking about it!

 

[davek]

Really? So the prem when Moyes was in it was weaker than it is now, and he effectively took what was only a championship level team to repeated European qualification? This is ludicrous. The fact you can't even recognise any quality of his beyond his ability to organise is a sad state of bitterness so long after he's gone.

Let's look at some of these so called championship teams he finished ahead of during his time in the prem:

Liverpool on three occasions, one of which they then won the Champions league, the other two seasons they had Suarez upfront with Dalglish and then Rodgers spending millions on the squad. Where these teams championship sides? Suarez, Gerrard, Carragher, Reina, Sturridge, Lucas are these championship players?

Villa under O'Neill: Petrov, Downing, Barry (so good he's apparently still essential to our side 8 years later) Milner (now at Liverpool) Young (at United). Agbonlahor, Heskey - never finished ahead of Moyes' championship side. Are these players championship standard?

Several iterations of Spurs teams under Jol, Ramos, AVB, Moyes' championship team finished ahead of them.

Portsmouth hugely inflated by spending money they didn't have on Campbell, Distin (so good he played for us for another 6 years) Defoe Crouch Krancjar etc. Half of these players are still in the premier league 8 years later! Of course Moyes' championship side finished ahead of them.

Not even mentioned a Newcastle side who were European regulars pre Moyes and had players like Shearer, Robert, Solano etc. Then Owen, Smith, Emre, Nzogbia, Given. City spending millions under Sven.

In this same period you had the premier leagues best ever performance in Europe between 05 and 2012 with Liverpool United and Chelsea winning it with multiple finalists and semi finalists every year. We can't even make a dent in Europe now. You had Fergusons United, Mourinho's Chelsea, Wengers invincibles and Liverpool under Rafael with two champs league finals. Yet you think the current crop are better?

Finally a quick look at some of the players Moyes assembled in his 'championship' squads over the years: Baines, Jagielka, Lescott, Stones all England internationals, Baines in team of the season, Stones valued at 40 mill, Lescott went for 26 mill to a team who became champions. Arteta -sold to Arsenal, Fellaini to United for 27 mill (still a member of LVGs squad), Pienaar -good enough for Spurs to buy him, us to get him back and Martinez to wait for him even at 34, Yakubu- one of the prem's record goal scorers, Cahill - World Cup legend, shortlist for ballon dor, Coleman -team of the season, prem's best right back. Mirallas - Belgian international, still in Martinez's squad.

The list goes on and on. All of Martinez's first choice back 5 are Moyes' players. Is this a championship back 5?

With one hand you claim that Moyes benefitted from a board with zero ambition. When Martinez was under pressure you called it the Everton way to stick with their managers and claimed 8th would be a good season. Moyes had his 'championship' team higher than that. Mind you the prem is more difficult now what with newly promoted teams like Southampton Leicester and West Ham so easily moving up the table.

You know that the judgement you have made this time on Moyes is utterly delusional. He didn't win anything fact, but after that your views on his footballing style are extremely subjective and not backed up by league placings. Arguing we had a championship squad in the weakest decade of the prem's history is frankly embarrassing.

If you think the battle for places just outside the top four spots hasn't heated up in recent seasons you need your head feeling. The amount of cash being thrown at very good players from Europe now by every club in the PL makes the standard that much higher than it was before right across the league. It's meant that the elite clubs really cant afford to just turn up and expect to leisurely work out how to get past two banks of four over 90 minutes. There's definitely been a flattening out with the introduction of this mega tv deal. Prior to that there was a perceptible pecking order behind the elite clubs, and Moyes managed to get us in the thick of that - in fact, he could afford to have a rubbish start to most seasons and still waltz through in the end with about 58 points to secure 'best of the rest' status. That's how inferior it was back then.

By the way, Moyes didn't secure 'repeated European qualification'. We qualified 4 seasons in the time he was here.

 

[Fuleco]

I feel bad that in his last two sackings everyone seemed to know before him.

 

[Saint Domingo]

If you think the battle for places just outside the top four spots hasn't heated up in recent seasons you need your head feeling. The amount of cash being thrown at very good players from Europe now by every club in the PL makes the standard that much higher than it was before right across the league. It's meant that the elite clubs really cant afford to just turn up and expect to leisurely work out how to get past two banks of four over 90 minutes. There's definitely been a flattening out with the introduction of this mega tv deal. Prior to that there was a perceptible pecking order behind the elite clubs, and Moyes managed to get us in the thick of that - in fact, he could afford to have a rubbish start to most seasons and still waltz through in the end with about 58 points to secure 'best of the rest' status. That's how inferior it was back then.

By the way, Moyes didn't secure 'repeated European qualification'. We qualified 4 seasons in the time he was here.

Compared to how many seasons before that? You know he got unlucky a few seasons as well with freak cup wins (Swansea and Wigan in one season, Liverpool winning the league cup but finishing outside of Europe). He could quite easily he sat here with over half of his seasons qualifying for Europe.

I still don't think the league is better now than it was before. There may have been a flattening but it's at a lower standard, the top 10 are a lot worse and the bottom 10 have improved. The fact that a mediocre Spurs team are looking favourites to get the same position that a great Spurs Team of Modric Bale Van der Vaart got shows you that the overall quality has not increased. There's just more of a scrap and more mobility in the league (see Leicester, Southampton, even Swansea last season) because there are lots of poorer sides. The top ten used to almost pick itself because of the quality of the teams in them.

Well done on ignoring all of my points on how your main assertion that we were a championship standard team is wrong.

 

[Dithering Dougie]

I feel bad that in his last two sackings everyone seemed to know before him.

Yeah it's like the start of some jarg comedy.


Or @davek can do black magic.

 

[Ihaters]

lol... I thought i'd heard every excuse for anything good Moyes did..
The whole league was easy and rubbish until the year he left, then became really hard. That's a new one.

 

[bignev23]

This thread is an embarrassment to our club, apart from Davek's comedic posts which I enjoy. Who are they anyway, a two bob Club with no clout at all, that's who they are and that's who they will stay.

 

[Jags..class]

He won't find a club with patient fans like us.

 

[bignev23]

He won't find a club with patient fans like us.

I'm presuming that's a joke, when you consider the reaction to Martinez's second season from about mid December to the end of February.

Anyone laughing at the Ginger one pocketed around ten million quid over the last 18 months? Thought so.

 

[Saint Domingo]

lol... I thought i'd heard every excuse for anything good Moyes did..
The whole league was easy and rubbish until the year he left, then became really hard. That's a new one.

Apparently the whole football pyramid. If the prem was championship standard, what did that make the rest? Only for those years that Moyes was here though. He timed his tenure to coincide perfectly with a massive dip in standards across the entire Emhlish game that reversed as soon as he left....apparently.

 

[l4toffee]

Not really any doubt that hes the best Manager we have had since Kendall.

You have clearly forgotten joe royle