Moyes Watch @ Real Sociedad

[catcherintherye]

The Peter Principle applies to Moyes. Promoted above his talents.

On reflection, Moyes was always a very good Championship level manager. Disciplined, defensively good, emphasis on hard work, but limited in their tactical awareness. In essence he took over at Everton when we were, in all but name, a Championship level club. We'd been flirting with that level for years, so it was a good fit for Moyes and us. He came in and made us a very good Championship quality team that competed well above any right it had to expect (with the blip second season left out of the equation). I've always believed the PL (especially back then) to never be of the quality its always afforded. Any club offering a lot of effort and discipline can achieve a fair bit. He got that out of our players and he got a lot of leeway from owners who were not ambitious (on or off the field). It was perfect for him. As soon as he left Everton though he had to show his own coaching credentials (and man management credentials at clubs with players unwilling to just accept his view of things and a discipline oriented regime).

He's what we all suspected him of being when he was here: a bog standard manager with a good eye for a bargain and an ability to impose discipline...but only at a certain type/level of football club.

Yes I think all of that has proven to be the case. The premier league when he was operating was in terms of excitement a very poor league. You probably had 14 or 15 clubs who were little more than championship clubs just looking to stay in the league. At the other end you then had 4 teams who were amongst the top 10 teams in the world. It was a complete monopoly and any one of the top 4 back then would probably walk the league now.
Obviously the strength of the top 4 teams gave the league an excitement and buzz to Sky in particular, who's base is largely made up of their fans as they competed to win every trophy going for a 5 or 6 year period. Outside of them though it was a dull league not too dissimilar to Scotland.

That was the context Moyes thrived in. He knew the logical limits of what he could do, which was make as few mistakes as possible, don't get distracted by cup competitions and look to be as close to the best of the rest as possible. Nobody minded as the people who run the league (execs at Sky) had no requirement for more competition to the top 4. It provided more than enough entertainment. 4 sides going for the title with 8 sides in a mass relegation scrap. This always afforded Moyes a level of respect in the game he may not have been due.

Where I think football has moved on in the Premier league is more egalitarian now. However just standing still and being consistent will only get you so far. If you look at how your Palace's, Southamptons or Leicester's are attacking this season there is a different approach.

I think Moyes is of a very particular time. His biggest mistake was not moving on once he established Everton are a top 6 team for another challenge. It may have stopped him getting stuck in a certain way of thinking.

 

[catcherintherye]

4th place on 61 points. Over the last decade that'd have gotten you on average 7th place in the league.

It was a very odd season when a genuine window of opportunity opened up for a 'best of the rest' type of team to secure a CL spot.

Dont misunderstand, though. I believe Moyes was a very good Championship level manager who turned us in the early years into a very good Championship level squad punching above its weight. He thereafter added quality and we became a good standard PL outfit. No question. However (and here's the point) he remained a very good Championship level coach and could never get the best out of the players he assembled in the second half of his time here.

You do touch upon something too. His method of poaching young players from the championship and making them competent footballers became well known. In the end championship clubs notice and just start asking for more money. I wouldn't say he was a 1 trick Pony, but he was very reliant on this.

Arsene Wenger was quite similar. He essentially used his knowledge of the French markets to buy in players like Petit, Viera, Henry, Pirex etc on the cheap. When people cottoned on to what he was doing he has never quite been as successful.

For Moyes I would say he was very good at performing one particular type of job. Like a footballer who might be good at crossing. He never really tried to learn any other skills though, and eventually defenders work you out. That's how it feels for him now, he has essentially been worked out.

 

[Zatara]

I think Martinez would really have UTD going for the title if he had the money and time Van Gaal as had so far...look at what hes done for us so far.

UTD fans could only dream of Deulofeu / Lukaku / Barkley / Stones in a side etc...i reckon he would really do well for them.

As for Moyes....hes made two bad moves in hindsight....went to UTD when their squad was in dire need of improvement....then joins a team who are on the way down as well.

He really needs to go to Leeds.

People going on about Karma, the fella saw out his contract and got a chance to manage the best team in the country and 1 of the biggest in the world.

He then made a bid for 2 our players, got jogged on and ended up paying through the nose.

El Coco will never manage a team as big as Man Utd.

Just sayin.

 

[TheOldLady]

Let's all take a few minutes to buzz off Moyes

Ugly little troll faced rat

 

[degsy]

The Peter Principle applies to Moyes. Promoted above his talents.

On reflection, Moyes was always a very good Championship level manager. Disciplined, defensively good, emphasis on hard work, but limited in their tactical awareness. In essence he took over at Everton when we were, in all but name, a Championship level club. We'd been flirting with that level for years, so it was a good fit for Moyes and us. He came in and made us a very good Championship quality team that competed well above any right it had to expect (with the blip second season left out of the equation). I've always believed the PL (especially back then) to never be of the quality its always afforded. Any club offering a lot of effort and discipline can achieve a fair bit. He got that out of our players and he got a lot of leeway from owners who were not ambitious (on or off the field). It was perfect for him. As soon as he left Everton though he had to show his own coaching credentials (and man management credentials at clubs with players unwilling to just accept his view of things and a discipline oriented regime).

He's what we all suspected him of being when he was here: a bog standard manager with a good eye for a bargin and an ability to Impose discipline...but only at a certain type/level of football clubs.

you've pretty much nailed him and the whole thread there davo...nice work.

 

[moyeslovechild]

he was never going to do well in spain

i still think he's better than half the managers in the prem tho

 

[Lifelong-Toffee]

I think the current Managerial situations show more and more how good a job the Everton one is. Sherwood bombed out of Villa after keeping them up last season and hitting a slump this, ditto Advocaat, Gary Monk the latest to hit poor form and his history forgotten about as they look to get rid. Moyes and even Martinez have both enjoyed the patience afforded them by the Everton board after poor runs of form.


No doubt Moyes will still think very highly of himself he always did, and will expect a decent Premiership job, but I think he could do worse than start angling for the Celtic job. He can obviously go down the media route and enjoy the coin and the fact he can live wherever he wants with zero pressure, but if he wants to continue as a manager, a few years at Celtic to add a few trophies to his cv and test himself in Europe year on year isn’t a bad idea. Especially with the way he manipulates his media profile, he’ll be linked with bigger jobs before he knows it, as the trophy gaps in his cv (and experience) will have been filled.

V good post

 

[Lifelong-Toffee]

Yes I think all of that has proven to be the case. The premier league when he was operating was in terms of excitement a very poor league. You probably had 14 or 15 clubs who were little more than championship clubs just looking to stay in the league. At the other end you then had 4 teams who were amongst the top 10 teams in the world. It was a complete monopoly and any one of the top 4 back then would probably walk the league now.
Obviously the strength of the top 4 teams gave the league an excitement and buzz to Sky in particular, who's base is largely made up of their fans as they competed to win every trophy going for a 5 or 6 year period. Outside of them though it was a dull league not too dissimilar to Scotland.

That was the context Moyes thrived in. He knew the logical limits of what he could do, which was make as few mistakes as possible, don't get distracted by cup competitions and look to be as close to the best of the rest as possible. Nobody minded as the people who run the league (execs at Sky) had no requirement for more competition to the top 4. It provided more than enough entertainment. 4 sides going for the title with 8 sides in a mass relegation scrap. This always afforded Moyes a level of respect in the game he may not have been due.

Where I think football has moved on in the Premier league is more egalitarian now. However just standing still and being consistent will only get you so far. If you look at how your Palace's, Southamptons or Leicester's are attacking this season there is a different approach.

I think Moyes is of a very particular time. His biggest mistake was not moving on once he established Everton are a top 6 team for another challenge. It may have stopped him getting stuck in a certain way of thinking.

Good post - football is more egalitarian as you say because of the recent tv money - clubs (us with Stones for example) can and do resist the football imperialism of Chelsea / United / Liverpool / City more than ever before. It's produced a better league as there as more upsets and it's more unpredictable. Although I still maintain the PL elite aren't a patch on what they used to be however, and that Real, Barca, Bayern etc are streets ahead of Arsenal / City / United now

Disagree with your last point. Why should he have left when he established us as a top 6 side? Wenger has done nothing in Europe since 06 and not looked like winning a title for years - he's not evolved and other managers are praised for longevity. Moyes leaving wouldn't have made him evolve

 

[Lifelong-Toffee]

Standard of posting on GOT is leagues ahead of the bitterness, stupidity, one-eyedness, and effing and blinding on RAWK and redcafe

Typical Everton behaviour that

 

[catcherintherye]

Good post - football is more egalitarian as you say because of the recent tv money - clubs (us with Stones for example) can and do resist the football imperialism of Chelsea / United / Liverpool / City more than ever before. It's produced a better league as there as more upsets and it's more unpredictable. Although I still maintain the PL elite aren't a patch on what they used to be however, and that Real, Barca, Bayern etc are streets ahead of Arsenal / City / United now

Disagree with your last point. Why should he have left when he established us as a top 6 side? Wenger has done nothing in Europe since 06 and not looked like winning a title for years - he's not evolved and other managers are praised for longevity. Moyes leaving wouldn't have made him evolve

Well no not immediately, but when it became clear he wouldn't have the backing he required to take us forward I think he'd have benefitted from getting out of his comfort zone. Maybe the season we sold Lescott would have been the time to put the feelers out.

 

[hallamblue]

Villa should have waited and got him instead of Garde, would have been a good fit.

 

[Black Belt Jones]

4th place on 61 points. Over the last decade that'd have gotten you on average 7th place in the league.

It was a very odd season when a genuine window of opportunity opened up for a 'best of the rest' type of team to secure a CL spot.

Dont misunderstand, though. I believe Moyes was a very good Championship level manager who turned us in the early years into a very good Championship level squad punching above its weight. He thereafter added quality and we became a good standard PL outfit. No question. However (and here's the point) he remained a very good Championship level coach and could never get the best out of the players he assembled in the second half of his time here.

Truth, DaveK - as in Ministry of Truth, records division.

Problem with calling Moyes a championship level coach is it creates a vast middle ground that is almost completely empty - ie who are the good premiership level coaches? Obv not talking about Ferguson, Mourinho, Wenger, Ancellotti - they're great premiership level coaches. Mancini and Pellegrini aren't at that level but they're title winners. It's a long way from title-winning level down to championship level, so you should have fifty names off the cuff who fit the bill of good prem coaches superior to Moyes. Reality is you'd struggle to name five, because so few people have won trophies in the prem era outside of the richest four clubs.

 

[LinekersLegs]

http://worldsoccertalk.com/2015/11/...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
David Moyes sacking from Real Sociedad creates a unique opportunity for several Major League Soccer (MLS) clubs to bring in a high level manager from abroad, one who understands the American game and player more than most. The former Everton boss has spent more time in the United States and around American players than just about any other European-based manager. While Moyes would be a good hire for just about any club in England or his native Scotland, he’s proven all he can in the United Kingdom. Unless he relishes a relegation fight with a Sunderland-like club or the media scrutiny that would come should he return to a more-aspirational English club, his best bet might be coming over to the United States, a nation which he has developed a unique understand of from a soccer standpoint.

Moyes interest in American players began when he managed Preston North End in the second tier of English football. He attracted Eddie Lewis and Brian McBride to the club. Lewis was bought permanently from Fulham while McBride was brought in on loan from MLS. After Moyes moved to Everton, he again arranged a loan deal for McBride, but finances did not allow him to sign the striker, who eventually moved to Fulham on a permanent basis. Moyes twice brought in Landon Donovan on loan to Everton and managed Tim Howard for seven seasons. He also brought his team to the United States often for preseason training, playing in friendly matches against MLS and United Soccer League teams on several occasions. In those matches, Moyes was able to experiment with tactics and evaluate players. Coming home from the United States, often times Everton would start Premier League season’s slowly but get stronger as time wore on, showing tactical discipline and incredible levels of fitness that was honed in the hot American summer sun.

The budgetary limitations on Moyes at Everton forced him to develop an extensive scouting network in the Americas. Through this network, Moyes brought several players from Latin America, the types of which MLS now targets in this age of increased league budgets. FC Dallas, who advanced to the MLS conference finals last night, is a clear example of how you can build a club by eschewing big name European-based designated players and mix homegrown talent with superior scouting in Latin America. Moyes also brought two American players in the late 2000’s from USL’s Premier Development League division to Everton, though neither stuck long-term with the club. But Moyes had the willingness to scout lower division US games and implement the infrastructure, including a unique partnership between Everton and Sports Interactive (the maker of Football Manager) to find data on players in more obscure leagues, including USL.
....
The former Everton boss owns a home in Naples, Fla., and has often been spotted during the summers on American soil even before the preseason for European clubs begins. As MLS gets more serious about its international profile and growing the respect the league has abroad, Moyes would be a home run hire for some club in the league. Very few Managers have the knowledge of the American scene, the tactical savvy and the high-level European club experience to manage in Major League Soccer. In fact, the list might be down to just one manager, and that is David Moyes, who now finds himself available on the job market. With MLS’s offseason just beginning for so many clubs, this would be the time to pull trigger.

 

[The Cowboy]

http://worldsoccertalk.com/2015/11/...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
David Moyes sacking from Real Sociedad creates a unique opportunity for several Major League Soccer (MLS) clubs to bring in a high level manager from abroad, one who understands the American game and player more than most. The former Everton boss has spent more time in the United States and around American players than just about any other European-based manager. While Moyes would be a good hire for just about any club in England or his native Scotland, he’s proven all he can in the United Kingdom. Unless he relishes a relegation fight with a Sunderland-like club or the media scrutiny that would come should he return to a more-aspirational English club, his best bet might be coming over to the United States, a nation which he has developed a unique understand of from a soccer standpoint.

Moyes interest in American players began when he managed Preston North End in the second tier of English football. He attracted Eddie Lewis and Brian McBride to the club. Lewis was bought permanently from Fulham while McBride was brought in on loan from MLS. After Moyes moved to Everton, he again arranged a loan deal for McBride, but finances did not allow him to sign the striker, who eventually moved to Fulham on a permanent basis. Moyes twice brought in Landon Donovan on loan to Everton and managed Tim Howard for seven seasons. He also brought his team to the United States often for preseason training, playing in friendly matches against MLS and United Soccer League teams on several occasions. In those matches, Moyes was able to experiment with tactics and evaluate players. Coming home from the United States, often times Everton would start Premier League season’s slowly but get stronger as time wore on, showing tactical discipline and incredible levels of fitness that was honed in the hot American summer sun.

The budgetary limitations on Moyes at Everton forced him to develop an extensive scouting network in the Americas. Through this network, Moyes brought several players from Latin America, the types of which MLS now targets in this age of increased league budgets. FC Dallas, who advanced to the MLS conference finals last night, is a clear example of how you can build a club by eschewing big name European-based designated players and mix homegrown talent with superior scouting in Latin America. Moyes also brought two American players in the late 2000’s from USL’s Premier Development League division to Everton, though neither stuck long-term with the club. But Moyes had the willingness to scout lower division US games and implement the infrastructure, including a unique partnership between Everton and Sports Interactive (the maker of Football Manager) to find data on players in more obscure leagues, including USL.
....
The former Everton boss owns a home in Naples, Fla., and has often been spotted during the summers on American soil even before the preseason for European clubs begins. As MLS gets more serious about its international profile and growing the respect the league has abroad, Moyes would be a home run hire for some club in the league. Very few Managers have the knowledge of the American scene, the tactical savvy and the high-level European club experience to manage in Major League Soccer. In fact, the list might be down to just one manager, and that is David Moyes, who now finds himself available on the job market. With MLS’s offseason just beginning for so many clubs, this would be the time to pull trigger.

Interesting. Never considered MLS. Could probably do ok there.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Interesting. Never considered MLS. Could probably do ok there.

I hadn't thought about it before saw the article but it makes some good points plus his reputation would probably be quite high with US players as Donovan/Howard/Cahill all seemed to like him as a manager.