Moyes' Cup Record (a comparison)

[Deloodid]

Good point which I've never considered before

What I will say though is that Chelsea weren't doing great when Di Matteo took over but when he did they had the Napoli result almost immediately and didn't look back from that point. He did have more choice player wise at Chelsea opposed to WBA though. Plus, that was a special situation due to his connection with the club and the fact that the players really liked him and wanted to fight for him

You can say the same about Sunderland ATM.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Football success really is weighted in favour of morale than anything else isn't it?

 

[The Hibbert Agenda]

You can't ignore that not all teams are equal though. Moyes has been in charge of a team that on average over his period has been one of the 6 or 7 best teams in the country. Few of those other managers have had bette materials than that.

And I think the fact that guys like McLeish and McClaren and Dalglish who are much worse managers on the whole, have done better than him in cups, proves that he's not a good cup manager.

He does fine work in the leagues but if a manager as poor as mcleish can win a cup, it's not that hard to do and moyes failiure ultimately exposes that as a weakness in his game.

No, they haven't done better at cups, they've done better in an individual cup run, and that's the point.
Fortuitous circumstances allowed these managers to go through a single run resulting in eventual cup success- but for each of them in this tenure this only happened once. In fact each of these 'better cup managers' are now unemployed and not held in high regard at all as managers.

I am not suggesting that Moyes hasn't seriously underachieved in cups over his time at everton. I do however feel that people are so eager for cup success that they're basing this as the major reason for getting rid of Moyes.
No realistic managerial target would improve on Moyes' league performances under the sAme budget, and if you were to suggest to me that Moyes' lack of silverware is due to an inherent flaw and that he will never win a cup I will laugh you out the room. He needs to do better, he needs to prioritize the cups more than the league probably, but looking at the list of winners there's nothing there tha suggests Moyes lacks the managerial attributes to join them.

 

[Allezfan]

No, they haven't done better at cups, they've done better in an individual cup run, and that's the point.
Fortuitous circumstances allowed these managers to go through a single run resulting in eventual cup success- but for each of them in this tenure this only happened once. In fact each of these 'better cup managers' are now unemployed and not held in high regard at all as managers.

I am not suggesting that Moyes hasn't seriously underachieved in cups over his time at everton. I do however feel that people are so eager for cup success that they're basing this as the major reason for getting rid of Moyes.
No realistic managerial target would improve on Moyes' league performances under the sAme budget, and if you were to suggest to me that Moyes' lack of silverware is due to an inherent flaw and that he will never win a cup I will laugh you out the room. He needs to do better, he needs to prioritize the cups more than the league probably, but looking at the list of winners there's nothing there tha suggests Moyes lacks the managerial attributes to join them.

Moyes lack of silverware is due to an inherent flaw and he will never win a cup.

Because ultimately we face teams who come the quarters and the semis raise a gear (wigan, reading, the RS, chelsea) and we don't. We're working at 100% in the league frankly and that extra gear for cup games just isn't there. It's the same with derbies, it's the same with europe, it's the same with away games at the big grounds, whenever our usual game isn't enough and we need an extra level we can't find it.

I remember Joe Royle and Royle's team stepped up, Moyes' team doesn't. Now probably the fact that we play league games vs the big 4 in the league as if it's a cup final is why we do better in the league then our fiannces would predict but it also means we don't step it up and the other teams too. We have a terrible cup record in terms of losing to lower league and relegation threatened teams and we have a pretty bad record at beating the top teams in cups compared to how often we do it in the league, we can't raise our game and so we're not going to win a trophy. And that is all on Moyes,

 

[Allezfan]

Dalglish last year was the essence of a cup manager, btw. In that one full year, they were awful in the league and yet reached two finals.

And that's entirely because he found an extra gear in cup games (and derbies). (Which says bad things about their effort in the league in they could be so bad and yet do it when it mattered mind). They weren't a better team than us, not even close, but they beat us and they beat man u etc etc because he got them up for it and moyes can't do that.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

What's Moyes supposed to actually do to "bring them up" though?

At the end of the day, they need to deliver on the pitch. He might be doing all he can but they still choke

Something like tactics and substitutions are more what we should be judging Moyes on.

 

[Ihaters]

That op's post says what I have been saying for a long time.
Unless you have a seriously expensive quality team, winning a cup is a fluke. How many have won 2 cups that are not the big spenders? If it wasn't a fluke surely there would be a few there wouldn't there?

Also as I said before he's not doing particularly bad in the cups really, despite not winning anything:

We have never in our history won the league cup so Moyes isn't exactly standing out here as a poor Everton manager, same record as Royle, Kendall and all others in this one.

And the amount of teams to win the FA cup since us in 1995, that are not part of the 5 massive spending big clubs United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and City?.... 1.. Portsmouth.. and now they are f***ed, because lets face it, they spent massive amounts of money to get it.

Congrats to those that won their league cup against the odds, a great result for them, but its a one off fluke that they won't be repeating for a long time, that's why its so special, and why we want one so badly, but also why its so hard to achieve. Slating Moyes because Cardiff won one doesn't really make sense, unless your also saying Ferguson is s**t because he didn't win that one that year.

What we've needed and continue to need is someone who can defy the odds every year in the transfer market and in the league, and to counter the board that are so blatantly letting us down, what we want is someone who can do that and win a cup, what I hope is that Moyes stays and wins us silverware with one of the budget teams he assembles whilst still maintaining our league position.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

That op's post says what I have been saying for a long time.
Unless you have a seriously expensive quality team, winning a cup is a fluke. How many have won 2 cups that are not the big spenders? If it wasn't a fluke surely there would be a few there wouldn't there?

Also as I said before he's not doing particularly bad in the cups really, despite not winning anything:

We have never in our history won the league cup so Moyes isn't exactly standing out here as a poor Everton manager, same record as Royle, Kendall and all others in this one.

And the amount of teams to win the cup since us in 1995 that are not part of the 5 massive spending big clubs? United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and City.... 1.. Portsmouth.. and now they are f***ed, because lets face it, they spent massive amounts of money to get it.

Congrats to those that won their league cup against the odds, a great result for them, but its a one off fluke that they won't be repeating for a long time, that's why its so special, and why we want one so badly, but also why its so hard to achieve. Slating Moyes because Cardiff won one doesn't really make sense, unless your also saying Ferguson is s**t because he didn't win that one that year.

What we've needed and continue to need is someone who can defy the odds every year in the transfer market and in the league, and to counter the board that are so blatantly letting us down, what we want is someone who can do that and win a cup, what I hope is that Moyes stays and wins us silverware with one of the budget teams he assembles whilst still maintaining our league position.

Spot on that, there's a load of crap spoken about this subject & the bare facts are there for all to see - Portsmouth, who went pop afterwards & are still falling, are the only club to have lifted the pot that eludes Moyes.

 

[The Hibbert Agenda]

That op's post says what I have been saying for a long time.
Unless you have a seriously expensive quality team, winning a cup is a fluke. How many have won 2 cups that are not the big spenders? If it wasn't a fluke surely there would be a few there wouldn't there?

Also as I said before he's not doing particularly bad in the cups really, despite not winning anything:

We have never in our history won the league cup so Moyes isn't exactly standing out here as a poor Everton manager, same record as Royle, Kendall and all others in this one.

And the amount of teams to win the FA cup since us in 1995, that are not part of the 5 massive spending big clubs United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and City?.... 1.. Portsmouth.. and now they are f***ed, because lets face it, they spent massive amounts of money to get it.

Congrats to those that won their league cup against the odds, a great result for them, but its a one off fluke that they won't be repeating for a long time, that's why its so special, and why we want one so badly, but also why its so hard to achieve. Slating Moyes because Cardiff won one doesn't really make sense, unless your also saying Ferguson is s**t because he didn't win that one that year.

What we've needed and continue to need is someone who can defy the odds every year in the transfer market and in the league, and to counter the board that are so blatantly letting us down, what we want is someone who can do that and win a cup, what I hope is that Moyes stays and wins us silverware with one of the budget teams he assembles whilst still maintaining our league position.

you have successfully wooed me.

 

[Little Ralphy]

My worry with di matteo is when west brom went on a bad run, and they lost something like nine games out of ten, he just couldn't turn it around.

He's fine at getting winning teams to keep winning, but that ability of getting a losing team to stop losing is one of Moye's msot underrated skills and one he didn't seem to have (though admittedly it's a low sample size). I never worry when we have a bad start under moyes that he won't end up turning it around, I would worry about that under di matteo.

Is that cos we do it so often though? Surely a top manager wouldn’t have his side start badly so consistently. They would have identified and corrected the issue that was causing it. When the same thing keeps happening time and again then something is wrong.

The analysis in the OP is quite bizarre, even by its own logic some of those managers were only in charge for 1 season. As Steken said, a better analysis would be teams getting knocked out by ‘lower’ opposition.

I think the cup does identify a flaw that Moyes has in the make up, of his sides. He seems to struggle to set up a side to go out and beat a certain side. That obviously sounds stupid, cos of course we win games. But Moyes’ management style appears to create a side that plays very similar every week, that is difficult to break down, but one which often relies on individuals to create chances to win the game. The system itself doesn’t really create the best chances for the best finishers. The margins are very thin, and as such, on one off occasions, when it really matters and teams set themselves up to counter us, we have sometimes come unstuck.

 

[Allezfan]

Is that cos we do it so often though? Surely a top manager wouldn’t have his side start badly so consistently. They would have identified and corrected the issue that was causing it. When the same thing keeps happening time and again then something is wrong.

We started better this year, so perhaps he did.

 

[Tubey]

The overall record in cups doesn't matter in the slightest as it's a lottery whether you get a big team, little team etc. What does matter are the really important games; the ones where the prize is in sight (Wembley), the other side are off form or have players injured (Liverpool) or you're comfortably the bigger and better team (Wigan) - in those games, David Moyes has been an abject failure.

A penalty shoot out over Chelsea and the odd other result aside, Moyes has clearly underperformed in the big games - and his captain elect has basically admitted as such in the media today.

 

[Tubey]

What's Moyes supposed to actually do to "bring them up" though?

At the end of the day, they need to deliver on the pitch. He might be doing all he can but they still choke

Something like tactics and substitutions are more what we should be judging Moyes on.

Moyes is a negative manager on the big occasion and instills fear in the playing squad, often at half time. Against Liverpool, you could visibly see it - we dropped back 10 yards and invited them on.

I'll give Moyes credit for his tactical and motivational choices lately, but let's not rewrite history.

 

[Little Ralphy]

We started better this year, so perhaps he did.

I hope so. We had our blips in October, November and February this season, when we had arguably our easiest fixtures (on paper).

 

[Allezfan]

I hope so. We had our blips in October, November and February this season, when we had arguably our easiest fixtures (on paper).

Feb, yeah. We weren't bad in the autumn, we just couldn't finish games.