Moyes' Cup Record (a comparison)

[The Hibbert Agenda]

So after reading forever about how Moyes' bottles it all the time in the Cup format of the game while other clubs like Portsmouth, Swansea, Birmingham have all won it (the likes of Cardiff, Bradford, Wigan, etc have made finals), I decided to go and analyse who the managers are that have outperformed Moyes in the format.

So to start, Moyes' Everton record stands as a glorious 0/1 from the FA cup final in 2008/2009

From Best to Worst in combined League and FA cups (Starting from Moyes' first full season at EFC):

Chelsea 6/7 (Mourinho 3/3, Guus Hiddink 1/1, Carlo Ancelloti 1/1, Roberto Di Matteo 1/1, Avram Grant 0/1)
United 5/6 (Ferguson)
Liverpool 3/5 (Houllier 1/1, Benitez 1/2, Dalglish 1/2)
Arsenal 1/4 (Wenger)
Man City 1/2* (Mancini)
Spurs 1/2 (Ramos 1/1, Redknapp 0/1)
Portsmouth 1/2 (Redknapp 1/1, Avram Grant 0/1)
Middlesborough 1/1 (McClaren)
Birmingham 1/1 (Mcleish)
Swansea 1/1 (Laudrup)
Wigan 0/2* (Jewell 0/1, Martinez TBA)
Cardiff 0/2 (Dave Jones, Malky Makay)
Southampton 0/1 (Strachan)
Millwall 0/1 (Dennis Wise)
Bolton 0/1 (Allardyce)
West Ham 0/1 (Pardew)
Villa 0/1 (O'Neill)
Stoke 0/1 (Pulis)
Bradford 0/1 (Phil Parkinson)

Some observations:
In the 22 Finals played in this time there have been 15 different winning managers.
There are 10 other managers who have the same record as Moyes (1 appearance, losing)
Avram Grant would appear to have the worst record with 0/2
Alex Ferguson and Jose Mourinho can really be seen to be the only two managers in this time to have excellent cup records (No other managers who have appeared in more than one final have won them both)

So what does this mean?
I guess it can mean nothing, seeing as one of the problems is the simple fact that Moyes just doesn't appear high enough on this list. We expect to be in more finals than this.
But also, lots of these managers are utter rubbish and I would drown them in my tears if Everton tried to appoint them.
So I guess, I dunno, I don't know if Moyes is such a bottler- it seems everyone is a bottler aside for Ferguson and Mourinho? The most successful Cup winners are those who were supported massively financially (Mancini, Benitez, Dalglish, RDM, Redknapp) or were fortuitous (McClaren & Laudrup ito opposition, McLeish who even knows...)

Thoughts?

 

[Allezfan]

So basically Moyes is no better a manager than pulis, pardew, strachan, wise, allardyce, jewell or phil parkinson. Thanks, mate.

 

[The Hibbert Agenda]

Maybe that it was it means.

But then he's also a worse manager than McLeish, McClaren, Redknapp, Juande Ramos, Laudrup, Di Matteo, Houllier and Dalglish.
I don't want any of them managing Everton ever (except maybe Laudrup).

Also, it would imply that he is better than all of the other managers in the entire English FA over the last 11 years that are not on the list. Whether that's true or not who knows, but Moyes certainly developed when we plucked him out of Preston.

 

[MickM86]

I skimmed through what you wrote and you can't base facts on this analysis. Cup games are one off games, lose and you're out.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Maybe that it was it means.

But then he's also a worse manager than McLeish, McClaren, Redknapp, Juande Ramos, Laudrup, Di Matteo, Houllier and Dalglish.
I don't want any of them managing Everton ever (except maybe Laudrup).

Also, it would imply that he is better than all of the other managers in the entire English FA over the last 11 years that are not on the list. Whether that's true or not who knows, but Moyes certainly developed when we plucked him out of Preston.

I actually like Di Matteo

Thought he got a raw deal at Chelsea to be fair

 

[Deloodid]

I actually like Di Matteo

Thought he got a raw deal at Chelsea to be fair

what about his time at WBA?

 

[steken1]

I think a better analysis would have been how often top 10 prem sides have been knocked out by sides lower than them in the league.

Time consuming but if you want to know?

 

[Allezfan]

Maybe that it was it means.

But then he's also a worse manager than McLeish, McClaren, Redknapp, Juande Ramos, Laudrup, Di Matteo, Houllier and Dalglish.
I don't want any of them managing Everton ever (except maybe Laudrup).

Also, it would imply that he is better than all of the other managers in the entire English FA over the last 11 years that are not on the list. Whether that's true or not who knows, but Moyes certainly developed when we plucked him out of Preston.

You can't ignore that not all teams are equal though. Moyes has been in charge of a team that on average over his period has been one of the 6 or 7 best teams in the country. Few of those other managers have had bette materials than that.

And I think the fact that guys like McLeish and McClaren and Dalglish who are much worse managers on the whole, have done better than him in cups, proves that he's not a good cup manager.

He does fine work in the leagues but if a manager as poor as mcleish can win a cup, it's not that hard to do and moyes failiure ultimately exposes that as a weakness in his game.

 

[Pabbers]

3 competitions a year
3 european trips

0 / 37

Thats his success rate.

 

[The Hibbert Agenda]

Agreed to a large degree, and I agree that this "analysis" actually doesnt lead to any single great conclusion either way. But what is interesting I think is that only Jose and Ferguson have won more than once. There are ,aside for these 2, no "cup experts".

 

[Allezfan]

Agreed to a large degree, and I agree that this "analysis" actually doesnt lead to any single great conclusion either way. But what is interesting I think is that only Jose and Ferguson have won more than once. There are ,aside for these 2, no "cup experts".

In England, over the last ten years. Agreed.

 

[The Hibbert Agenda]

3 competitions a year
3 european trips

0 / 37

Thats his success rate.

Then you'd love RDM, he's won the FA cup and champions league. Real cup specialist. Was totally average at west brom.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

what about his time at WBA?

There were good moments there and I seem to recall them playing nice football at times

I think his ability to get the team working for the cause was probably his main attribute. And tactically he did well to beat both Barca and Bayern

He deserved more of a chance this season I think. If I'd been a Chelsea fan, I would have been quite merked to see him jibbed off the way he was

 

[Allezfan]

There were good moments there and I seem to recall them playing nice football at times

I think his ability to get the team working for the cause was probably his main attribute. And tactically he did well to beat both Barca and Bayern

He deserved more of a chance this season I think. If I'd been a Chelsea fan, I would have been quite merked to see him jibbed off the way he was

My worry with di matteo is when west brom went on a bad run, and they lost something like nine games out of ten, he just couldn't turn it around.

He's fine at getting winning teams to keep winning, but that ability of getting a losing team to stop losing is one of Moye's msot underrated skills and one he didn't seem to have (though admittedly it's a low sample size). I never worry when we have a bad start under moyes that he won't end up turning it around, I would worry about that under di matteo.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

My worry with di matteo is when west brom went on a bad run, and they lost something like nine games out of ten, he just couldn't turn it around.

He's fine at getting winning teams to keep winning, but that ability of getting a losing team to stop losing is one of Moye's msot underrated skills and one he didn't seem to have (though admittedly it's a low sample size). I never worry when we have a bad start under moyes that he won't end up turning it around, I would worry about that under di matteo.

Good point which I've never considered before

What I will say though is that Chelsea weren't doing great when Di Matteo took over but when he did they had the Napoli result almost immediately and didn't look back from that point. He did have more choice player wise at Chelsea opposed to WBA though. Plus, that was a special situation due to his connection with the club and the fact that the players really liked him and wanted to fight for him