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2019/20 Moise Kean

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Arteta10

Player Valuation: £10m
He's not even played 700 minutes in the league, that's what I go off of mostly when we aren't in Europe as the cups are all a bit weird regarding quality of opponent and how much each team is actually trying. But even then the 700 minutes is a bit misleading because something like 2 or 3 hundred of those came from games where he had sub appearances of 20 or less minutes. It is hard to be effective in that kind of situation imo. He also has only 5 starts and they're separated into two in September, one in late December and one in late January. So to me this idea that he's gotten a real chance is kind of a stretch. It hasn't been set up well for him so far.

On the what do I see with him part the answer is basically everything but consistent hold up play and actually putting chances away. But unless he's the worst finisher ever I think he will start to put them away if he keeps playing. The other part who knows, but Lukaku is an example of someone who never really developed the hold up game and I think that went fine.

You've said you don't really see him as being good on the ball and that is something I think is just objectively wrong. He's got very good dribbling stats, whether you believe in that stuff or not, to the point that people I think are suggesting he play wide simply because of it. But he isn't a wide player and that dribbling ability is very useful in terms of him getting shots away from decent areas.

Honestly I believe the entire "Kean isn't good" campaign relies on two things. One is that he hasn't quite had it as a finisher. But again there is reason to think that won't last forever. The other is that he looks "lost" or whatever out there but as none of us are professional footballers I find it hard to say we know better how to move. For me the way he gets on things and gets the ball into dangerous spots suggests he has at least a passing understanding of what he is doing.
Mate, dribbling stats mean nothing if he beats 3 people then falls over the ball. He may well be skillful and he has shown a couple of nice touches but none of them have actually been very effective.

The only time i can remember him taking a man on and having any sort of end product was in the Lincoln game when he hit the post.

In the game against Norwich he had the perfect chance to run at the last defender and he had no idea what to do, took all day, and then luckily got bundled over by Cantwell for a free kick.

None of us are professional footballers, but we have all watched plenty of professional footballers, and to me Kean doesnt look like one unfortunately.
 

Little Ralphy

Player Valuation: £10m
He's not even played 700 minutes in the league, that's what I go off of mostly when we aren't in Europe as the cups are all a bit weird regarding quality of opponent and how much each team is actually trying. But even then the 700 minutes is a bit misleading because something like 2 or 3 hundred of those came from games where he had sub appearances of 20 or less minutes. It is hard to be effective in that kind of situation imo. He also has only 5 starts and they're separated into two in September, one in late December and one in late January. So to me this idea that he's gotten a real chance is kind of a stretch. It hasn't been set up well for him so far.

On the what do I see with him part the answer is basically everything but consistent hold up play and actually putting chances away. But unless he's the worst finisher ever I think he will start to put them away if he keeps playing. The other part who knows, but Lukaku is an example of someone who never really developed the hold up game and I think that went fine.

You've said you don't really see him as being good on the ball and that is something I think is just objectively wrong. He's got very good dribbling stats, whether you believe in that stuff or not, to the point that people I think are suggesting he play wide simply because of it. But he isn't a wide player and that dribbling ability is very useful in terms of him getting shots away from decent areas.

Honestly I believe the entire "Kean isn't good" campaign relies on two things. One is that he hasn't quite had it as a finisher. But again there is reason to think that won't last forever. The other is that he looks "lost" or whatever out there but as none of us are professional footballers I find it hard to say we know better how to move. For me the way he gets on things and gets the ball into dangerous spots suggests he has at least a passing understanding of what he is doing.
I get the impression that you’ve been enjoying the Everton performances a lot more than I have. But for arguments sake..



You can’t just pick and choose which games to count and which to discard. He started the Lincoln game which against lower div opposition should have given him a great chance to showcase his talents. He didn’t take it. He also played 45 against Watford and Leicester. Add the 27 in the horrific derby and that’s 191 mins of mediocrity you’ve discounted because you weren’t sure on who was or wasn’t trying. 191 mins to make a point that he should be starting more games, and he did nothing.



Let’s look at those 20 mins or less games. 14 games he got less than 20 mins (total of 167 mins), what is the point of him even coming on a sub if he can’t impact a game from the bench? Maybe he’s not one of those players hey. 13 games he played more than 20 mins (581 mins). So using your own 20 mins which he must need to warm up, he had 581 mins of time on the pitch in which he should have impacted the game in some way. That’s more than enough time to make an impression, to show a glimpse of talent. Football is a tough profession, if you don’t perform you don’t get given chances, it really is that simple. You have to take the chance when you get it, and he hasn’t.



You think he has ‘everything’ bar consistent hold up play and actually putting chances away? So what does he have that a striker needs? Lukaku didn’t have great hold up play granted, but he was a goal machine, he took his chances at every club he was at til he was a household name. In that sense you can’t compare the two. If Kean was hitting Lukaku’s goals tally then I don’t think anyone would be doubting him. I personally think that Lukaku was an early developer physically and that’s why he never worked on his hold up game, cos he could bully people out of the way and just run through and score. So by the time he came up against players as big as him, it’s a lot more difficult at that age to work on that if it’s never been a part of your game. I wonder if Kean has been similar, an early developer which has got him this far, but now players are as physical and more tactically minded, he’s found wanting because he doesn’t have anything else to his game.



I’ve seen people suggest he play wide cos he’s not very good central, and they’re hoping cos it’s a bit easier out wide, he may get more game time and show something. Fingers crossed but again, I’d be surprised. He’s had chances in games where he’s had the ball with loads of space to run in to, and he’s looked clumsy at best. Perhaps he has some sort of mental issue and with being in a new environment he’s bereft of any confidence, hence why he looks so awkward. One can hope, I guess.



You’re just expecting he’ll get better at finishing, what is that based on? Granted as a team we don’t create many chances, but even ones he has, he doesn’t look even close to being a finisher. The pea rollers from outside the box are lazy efforts which very rarely go in. The ‘assist’ that you give him at Watford was a chance which he scuffed completely, a proper finisher would have at least kicked that towards the goal. That’s possibly the only time I’ve seen him in a position where he looked like he might actually do something. Most of the time he’s nowhere to be seen. The Kean isn’t very good isn’t a campaign, every Everton fan will want him to do well, he’s just not showed even the slightest hint of talent to suggest that he will be a success though and that’s why people are starting to suggest he isn’t very good.
 

TheBigIguana

Player Valuation: £70m
Mate, dribbling stats mean nothing if he beats 3 people then falls over the ball. He may well be skillful and he has shown a couple of nice touches but none of them have actually been very effective.

The only time i can remember him taking a man on and having any sort of end product was in the Lincoln game when he hit the post.

In the game against Norwich he had the perfect chance to run at the last defender and he had no idea what to do, took all day, and then luckily got bundled over by Cantwell for a free kick.

None of us are professional footballers, but we have all watched plenty of professional footballers, and to me Kean doesnt look like one unfortunately.
It is hard to expect consistent end product without consistent playing for someone his age. That's why I'm looking at things like him taking on a defender against Spurs and getting a shot away as positive even when it goes right at the goalie. Because if he were getting more chances I could see that same shot being in the corner, unless of course he is a terrible finisher, which I don't believe to be true. I don't think the focus should be end product, goals, etc. until he is actually getting on the field regularly.
 

TheBigIguana

Player Valuation: £70m
I get the impression that you’ve been enjoying the Everton performances a lot more than I have. But for arguments sake..



You can’t just pick and choose which games to count and which to discard. He started the Lincoln game which against lower div opposition should have given him a great chance to showcase his talents. He didn’t take it. He also played 45 against Watford and Leicester. Add the 27 in the horrific derby and that’s 191 mins of mediocrity you’ve discounted because you weren’t sure on who was or wasn’t trying. 191 mins to make a point that he should be starting more games, and he did nothing.



Let’s look at those 20 mins or less games. 14 games he got less than 20 mins (total of 167 mins), what is the point of him even coming on a sub if he can’t impact a game from the bench? Maybe he’s not one of those players hey. 13 games he played more than 20 mins (581 mins). So using your own 20 mins which he must need to warm up, he had 581 mins of time on the pitch in which he should have impacted the game in some way. That’s more than enough time to make an impression, to show a glimpse of talent. Football is a tough profession, if you don’t perform you don’t get given chances, it really is that simple. You have to take the chance when you get it, and he hasn’t.



You think he has ‘everything’ bar consistent hold up play and actually putting chances away? So what does he have that a striker needs? Lukaku didn’t have great hold up play granted, but he was a goal machine, he took his chances at every club he was at til he was a household name. In that sense you can’t compare the two. If Kean was hitting Lukaku’s goals tally then I don’t think anyone would be doubting him. I personally think that Lukaku was an early developer physically and that’s why he never worked on his hold up game, cos he could bully people out of the way and just run through and score. So by the time he came up against players as big as him, it’s a lot more difficult at that age to work on that if it’s never been a part of your game. I wonder if Kean has been similar, an early developer which has got him this far, but now players are as physical and more tactically minded, he’s found wanting because he doesn’t have anything else to his game.



I’ve seen people suggest he play wide cos he’s not very good central, and they’re hoping cos it’s a bit easier out wide, he may get more game time and show something. Fingers crossed but again, I’d be surprised. He’s had chances in games where he’s had the ball with loads of space to run in to, and he’s looked clumsy at best. Perhaps he has some sort of mental issue and with being in a new environment he’s bereft of any confidence, hence why he looks so awkward. One can hope, I guess.



You’re just expecting he’ll get better at finishing, what is that based on? Granted as a team we don’t create many chances, but even ones he has, he doesn’t look even close to being a finisher. The pea rollers from outside the box are lazy efforts which very rarely go in. The ‘assist’ that you give him at Watford was a chance which he scuffed completely, a proper finisher would have at least kicked that towards the goal. That’s possibly the only time I’ve seen him in a position where he looked like he might actually do something. Most of the time he’s nowhere to be seen. The Kean isn’t very good isn’t a campaign, every Everton fan will want him to do well, he’s just not showed even the slightest hint of talent to suggest that he will be a success though and that’s why people are starting to suggest he isn’t very good.
I'm sorry but this is the same conversation we had years ago with Lookman and Vlasic. If you think 1000 minutes a season with most of it being off the bench and the rare start that ends up with you back on the bench regardless of performance is a fair shot at establishing yourself and developing than we just have such fundamental differences of opinion as to what a chance is that the conversation has no point.
 

Little Ralphy

Player Valuation: £10m
I'm sorry but this is the same conversation we had years ago with Lookman and Vlasic. If you think 1000 minutes a season with most of it being off the bench and the rare start that ends up with you back on the bench regardless of performance is a fair shot at establishing yourself and developing than we just have such fundamental differences of opinion as to what a chance is that the conversation has no point.
yeah cos the only chance a player gets to show the manager he's any good is in games. Ignorance is bliss.
 

Arteta10

Player Valuation: £10m
It is hard to expect consistent end product without consistent playing for someone his age. That's why I'm looking at things like him taking on a defender against Spurs and getting a shot away as positive even when it goes right at the goalie. Because if he were getting more chances I could see that same shot being in the corner, unless of course he is a terrible finisher, which I don't believe to be true. I don't think the focus should be end product, goals, etc. until he is actually getting on the field regularly.
There is a good reason why he isn't getting on the field more often tho. 3 different managers have hardly given him a sniff.

He is a complete passenger at the minute, doesn't make any intelligent runs, seems to have no spacial awareness or game intelligence and gives away stupid free kicks in defensive areas when we're under pressure.

I really want him to succeed here but at the minute he is a liability when hes on the pitch
 

TheBigIguana

Player Valuation: £70m
yeah cos the only chance a player gets to show the manager he's any good is in games. Ignorance is bliss.
People try to make this "show it in training!!" point all the time and I just think if you're good enough to be in the squad every week and the team is playing crap then at some point you should be given a run. That goes for everyone not just Kean.

It also seems like young players are held to a much higher standard on all of this by our supporters than the older ones who can play crap for months on end but aren't expected to have to prove their quality to play more. It's all so weird.
 

TheBigIguana

Player Valuation: £70m
There is a good reason why he isn't getting on the field more often tho. 3 different managers have hardly given him a sniff.

He is a complete passenger at the minute, doesn't make any intelligent runs, seems to have no spacial awareness or game intelligence and gives away stupid free kicks in defensive areas when we're under pressure.

I really want him to succeed here but at the minute he is a liability when hes on the pitch
He doesn't get on the field because Richarlison and DCL are playing really well. Anyone trying to spin it any other way is missing the mark.
 

Little Ralphy

Player Valuation: £10m
People try to make this "show it in training!!" point all the time and I just think if you're good enough to be in the squad every week and the team is playing crap then at some point you should be given a run. That goes for everyone not just Kean.

It also seems like young players are held to a much higher standard on all of this by our supporters than the older ones who can play crap for months on end but aren't expected to have to prove their quality to play more. It's all so weird.
Equal game time for all! This isn't mini soccer.
 

Arteta10

Player Valuation: £10m
He doesn't get on the field because Richarlison and DCL are playing really well. Anyone trying to spin it any other way is missing the mark.
Na im not having that mate.

It’s a squad game, Richie/DCL haven’t been playing really well all season, we’ve been crying out for a bit of rotation up there in the last few games the pair of them could do with a rest, Kean is the only back up striker we have and he still doesn’t get a look in. Pretty sure Gordon sigurdson and iwobi have all been preferred there at some point over Kean.

I’m not trying to spin anything any way and as LittleRalphy said, there’s no campaign against Kean from Evertonians, were all desperate for him to succeed, at goodison when fans were allowed he got one of the biggest roars whenever he came on. But he has shown us very very little to get excited about, even his only goal against Newcastle came after an appalling first touch!
 

Little Ralphy

Player Valuation: £10m
Predictably like so many on here you just can't see the point at all.

This club will not compete for anything meaningful until they start to accept that long term player development is the key to actually having a competitive squad.
I don't disagree with that at all, but it's not a guarantee that all players improve given game time. It's not a computer game where his attributes will automatically increase as he ages.

For someone to get in to the first team they really need to show that they have ability or high potential to deserve the place. It's a tough business. Kean has shown neither at this point in time. I already said I'd give him more game time for the last 3 games given they're now meaningless, but only to see if he can show anything worthy of him staying on beyond the Summer.
 
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