Martin Samuel's loan market articles

[Moomin]

Martin Samuel Cluedo

On the toilet, cardiac arrest.

 

[Kev The Rat]

The issue with the article is that he doesn't really criticise the big clubs for stockpiling talent that leads to the situation of them wanting to loan out talented players to other clubs. He chooses to criticise the fact that it has allowed Everton to outperform rivals to a degree he feels they would not have done without those loans. If we were sitting in 8th place no one would be mentioning it.

He makes a spurious link to FFP rules, saying that had we signed all the players we would likely have fallen foul of these rules. Patently ridiculous as the only way we could have bought them would be through proper financing as we don't have a billionaire in charge - not the case at the clubs who have loaned out the players!

But the fact we are 5th and knocking on the door of 4th justifies his argument, because very probably without the loans we wouldn't be. Are you saying that if we were to fall foul of FFP by owning these players, then so should the parent club by virtue of owning them, and they clearly arent? If so, its a very powerful point, and an obvious rebuttal to his unsubstantiated case.

My argument is that players of this type would clearly be ours anyway if it was not for a system that allows a few clubs to stockpile them, and Samuels must be a fool not to realise this.

 

[Garrick]

I think the issue that Samuels raises and I think it's fair is that the players being loaned to us aren't young players lent to us to 'develop their game'. Both Barry and Lukaku are highly coveted players who would start for any number of top clubs. Even Gerard has proved himself at European level. So he's right that it's a problem it's just that he misses the point (or at least ignores it) that it's the fact that Chelsea are allowed to have so many players on their books that is the cause of the issue.

If they weren't, I would suggest we would be first in line to get players like Lukaku and Barry anyway, which is why I would be happy with a clampdown.

Yeah, his belief is that we'd still have Rodwell if it weren't for the loan system, since we could continue to offer him regular playing time and Citeh really can't.

I think he's right about the loan system, and that getting rid of it would allow younger players to stay at the clubs they came up with longer. But the way he writes still makes him sound like a tit.

 

[Kev The Rat]

Yeah, his belief is that we'd still have Rodwell if it weren't for the loan system, since we could continue to offer him regular playing time and Citeh really can't.

I think he's right about the loan system, and that getting rid of it would allow younger players to stay at the clubs they came up with longer. But the way he writes still makes him sound like a tit.

Are you saying loan players replaced Rodwell? Because that's not true. What loan players did we replace Rodwell with? None. We couldnt wait to get shot of him as he really was doing very little by the time we sold him. I dont think th there was any will on our part to retain him because he wasnt good enough.

 

[Garrick]

Are you saying loan players replaced Rodwell? Because that's not true. What loan players did we replace Rodwell with? None. We couldnt wait to get shot of him as he really was doing very little by the time we sold him.

I'm saying that if the loan system didn't exist, monied clubs like Citeh wouldn't have as big of a demand for young players since they can't just sit on as many of them without making them unhappy. It would be harder to unsettle players at poorer clubs, as there'd be more incentive to stay somewhere where you can get regular playing time if you have international aspirations.

It's entirely possible we would have sold him anyway, but there would be less reasons for him to go.

 

[Royal Blue Jersey]

The issue with the article is that he doesn't really criticise the big clubs for stockpiling talent that leads to the situation of them wanting to loan out talented players to other clubs. He chooses to criticise the fact that it has allowed Everton to outperform rivals to a degree he feels they would not have done without those loans. If we were sitting in 8th place no one would be mentioning it.

He makes a spurious link to FFP rules, saying that had we signed all the players we would likely have fallen foul of these rules. Patently ridiculous as the only way we could have bought them would be through proper financing as we don't have a billionaire in charge - not the case at the clubs who have loaned out the players!

Exactly. If the problem is with the stockpiling clubs, why dos he not go after them?

 

[Moomin]

Exactly. If the problem is with the stockpiling clubs, why dos he not go after them?

They will ban him from the carvery if he goes after them.

 

[Kev The Rat]

I'm saying that if the loan system didn't exist, monied clubs like Citeh wouldn't have as big of a demand for young players since they can't just sit on as many of them without making them unhappy. It would be harder to unsettle players at poorer clubs, as there'd be more incentive to stay somewhere where you can get regular playing time if you have international aspirations.

It's entirely possible we would have sold him anyway, but there would be less reasons for him to go.

Yes I agree, but you are saying Samuels is kind of saying that, which if you read the article, he really isnt.

He says without the loan system we could not have Lukaku, Gerard and Barry. I say we almost certainly would, for reasons he conveniently overlooks. Not least because transfers fees would be a lot lower as a result of a few monied clubs not being able to chase all the talent.

So ultimately he's just attacking us, because unless he is a fool he will realise all of this.

 

[Royal Blue Jersey]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...eague-without-loan-signings-table-proves.html

Haha

The 5 richest clubs at the top. The 5 clubs who can afford to not bother with loan signings. Southampton in 6th also have boatloads more than us. All that table shows is that we are punching way, way above our weight in terms of budget. Not our fault we're just very good at doing that

 

[MikeH72]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...eague-without-loan-signings-table-proves.html

Haha

Crying and shaking. What is the Mail's problem?

 

[Garrick]

Yes I agree, but you are saying Samuels is kind of saying that, which if you read the article, he really isnt.

He says it in the followup Q&A he did that included a lot of backpedaling.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...noia-football-fans-never-ceases-amaze-me.html

How is this any different than clubs who just buy success? The team that Martinez inherited was already fantastic and he has just had to tweak it to his style of play. As for Everton struggling without Marouane Fellaini if we get into the Champions League, I doubt with the style of play we have now he would fit into the current squad. Gedi88, Liverpool.

Ged, that is my argument. The two systems are imperfect, yet we have a holier-than-thou attitude to throwing money at a football club, while turning a blind eye to the artificial inflation via the loan system. I don’t blame Everton for using the part of the market that suits their needs; I just think there is a better way, and that it would benefit Everton long-term, too, by forcing prices down. And here’s another thought. Does Jack Rodwell leave if he knows he has to make Manchester City’s first-team to play, and cannot escape with a loan? Because I think, without the loan system, he is still your player.

 

[Michael Tsui]

I'm saying that if the loan system didn't exist, monied clubs like Citeh wouldn't have as big of a demand for young players since they can't just sit on as many of them without making them unhappy. It would be harder to unsettle players at poorer clubs, as there'd be more incentive to stay somewhere where you can get regular playing time if you have international aspirations.

It's entirely possible we would have sold him anyway, but there would be less reasons for him to go.

Not exactly. Citeh need the like of Rodwell and Scott Sinclair because they needed bodies for cover and somehow they have already hit the 17 limit on non-local (as defined) players. Rodwell is, conveniently, trained at Everton under that definition.

It is a win-win situation, at least before citeh realized they don't really need them.

 

[canuckblue]

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

 

[Garrick]

Not exactly. Citeh need the like of Rodwell and Scott Sinclair because they needed bodies for cover and somehow they have already hit the 17 limit on non-local (as defined) players. Rodwell is, conveniently, trained at Everton under that definition.

It is a win-win situation, at least before citeh realized they don't really need them.

Right. It's entirely possible that without the loan system they would've not signed a different player and still poached Rodwell. I think it still raises the chance he would have stayed, though.

 

[Moomin]