Maradona

[artetas_biggest_fan]

I’m sure you could go into detail but it wouldn’t be based on you watching him every week... it would be based on opinions of others who watched him every week. People forget that barely anyone got to watch him play every week because Italian football wasn’t aired over here until the early 90s, not forgetting majority of games weren’t even broadcast live domestically let alone to worldwide audiences. Foreign football was not easily accessible whereas nowadays it’s easy for anyone to watch every single second that Messi plays... opinions on Messi tend to be based more on facts/stats because of this whereas the arguments for Maradona being the best seems to revolve more around feelings and repeating what other people’s experiences of having watched him every week were. The fact you’ve resorted to some vague nothing phrase about “getting football” to back your views up is evidence of this as are your constant exaggerations about him playing with bums at the time.

You are on to something. Maradona evokes a great deal more emotion from people, and it skews judgement. Personality wise, Messi is a dullard. A quiet, unassuming altar boy. It’s for this reason if I had to pick one on my team it would be Maradona. He’s a leader, a firebrand, basically Roy Keane with skill.

Talent wise it’s a different matter. Messi, with the ball at his feet, is untouchable.

The eyes do not lie. You can watch any comparison vid on YouTube, it’s genuinely not close. The dribbling ability, the consistency, no-one can touch him. For the Maradona goal vs England (that gets overplayed btw), Messi has at least 10 of comparable quality.

Since eras are being brought up, yes Maradona got kicked more and the pitches were not carpets, but the game was also much slower then. It’s a lot harder to get away from opponents today as everyone generally is an athlete. There are no Peter Reids to easily skip past.

 

[longers]

If you placed Messi in the Napoli teams of the 80s or the Argentine team of 86 there would not be the same outcome as the one's that occurred when Maradona played for them. You simply CANNOT reverse the point and claim that Maradona couldn't have done and achieved what Messi has done with Barcelona.

So your killer point to end the debate is basically you guessing that Messi couldn't do it on a cold rainy night in 80's Napoli lol

The player with a huge advantage in conditoning and fitness couldn't handle it in an era against objectively worse athletes, presumably just because they fouled a lot back then ?

Im not even close to buying that i'm afraid. We'll just have to just disagree

 

[artetas_biggest_fan]

Regards the “winning it on his own” myth. The Argies 1986 success being solely down to him has been debunked. In the final, he was shackled by Mattheus. His teammates don’t score the 3 goals, Maradona ain’t picking up any trophy.

Napoli..,this is the club version myth. They were successful as they had money to spend, breaking the world transfer record in the process. They were not paupers.

1989 UEFA Cup final - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Their two other foreign players (3 allowedj

Alemao, Brazil midfielder at 1990 World Cup
Careca, Brazil striker at 1986 and 1990 World Cup

Both world class.

And they had a team littered with Italian internationals from the 1986 and 1990 World Cup. Ciro Ferrara, De Napoli, and Carnevale. Anyone who has seen any of these players would dismiss the myth.

 

[davek]

So your killer point to end the debate is basically you guessing that Messi couldn't do it on a cold rainy night in 80's Napoli lol

The player with a huge advantage in conditoning and fitness couldn't handle it in an era against objectively worse athletes, presumably just because they fouled a lot back then ?

Im not even close to buying that i'm afraid. We'll just have to just disagree

All that training and fitness...and talent...and protection.....and he still cant win the biggest prize in football.

He was found out on the international stage. Utterly found out. Forget Maradona for a second, Ronaldo dragged a Portugal team - way below the calibre of any Argentine team he's played in - to a European Championship win.

No wonder you just want to agree to disagree - your situation is hopeless.

Regards the “winning it on his own” myth. The Argies 1986 success being solely down to him has been debunked. In the final, he was shackled by Mattheus. His teammates don’t score the 3 goals, Maradona ain’t picking up any trophy.

Napoli..,this is the club version myth. They were successful as they had money to spend, breaking the world transfer record in the process. They were not paupers.

1989 UEFA Cup final - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Their two other foreign players (3 allowedj

Alemao, Brazil midfielder at 1990 World Cup
Careca, Brazil striker at 1986 and 1990 World Cup

Both world class.

And they had a team littered with Italian internationals from the 1986 and 1990 World Cup. Ciro Ferrara, De Napoli, and Carnevale. Anyone who has seen any of these players would dismiss the myth.

*sigh*

 

[longers]

First clip of it released

 

[Westend Blue]

In my opinion players like Ronidinho and Maradona capture the very essence of the pure unbridled joy of football. Wizzards with the ball and doing the outrageous entertainment ballers

 

[artetas_biggest_fan]

*sigh*

Top goal scorer in this year’s Champions League, created three clear cut chances for Coutinho, Suarez and Alba at Anfield..any one of those goes in and Barca are in the final and one game away from achieving Messi’s purpose, as seen here:




Just admit you are wrong about Messi.

 

[davek]

Top goal scorer in this year’s Champions League, created three clear cut chances for Coutinho, Suarez and Alba at Anfield..any one of those goes in and Barca are in the final and one game away from achieving Messi’s purpose, as seen here:




Just admit you are wrong about Messi.

If you want to debate who's better than Messi, use Ronaldo as the one you measure him by. That's proportionate.

You dont ever compare those with natural talent with the preternatural.

There is no Maradona versus anyone.

 

[artetas_biggest_fan]

If you want to debate who's better than Messi, use Ronaldo as the one you measure him by. That's proportionate.

You dont ever compare those with natural talent with the preternatural.

There is no Maradona versus anyone.

So no actual comment on the video then. In the Champions League, Messi delivered, his teammates did not. When Maradona was shackled by Mattheus in the 1986 World Cup final, his teammates delivered.

 

[davek]

So no actual comment on the video then. In the Champions League, Messi delivered, his teammates did not. When Maradona was shackled by Mattheus in the 1986 World Cup final, his teammates delivered.

Here's the hierarchy of football greats (attacking players) 1970s onward:


Mardona
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Cruyff, Pele
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Messi, Ronaldo (POR), Zidane
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Gullit, Ronaldo (BRZ), Stoichkov, Ronaldinho, Best, Platini

 

[artetas_biggest_fan]

Definitely a Diego fanboy.

Been watching too many highlight reels, and replays of his goal when he was able to run away from the mighty athlete that is Peter Reid.

First, watch actual 90 minute games. Second, take away the image of him lifting the World Cup (which much of his reputation is based on) after his three teammates scored the three goals for Argentina in the ‘86 final. Third, look at his output throughout his career (his time at Barca included). It’s a different story.

Had Messi lifted the World Cup trophy (he would have done if Higuain was Jorge Valdano, and wasn’t such a bottler) then he too would have been elevated purely by association. The image of a player with a trophy gives a false impression of their ability. Higuain scoring that sitter and Messi lifting the trophy wouldn’t have made Messi any better.

Watching footage of them side by side, with the ball at their feet, and over 90 minute games not highlights, Messi is king. I don’t think it’s remotely close. Diego often used his stocky frame to back into players and protect the ball, he could be sloppy at times with the ball, whereas Messi has complete control of it, drops a shoulder and glides past players...they never get near him.

Far more successful dribbles per game, far more goals per game, far more assists per game. Not even close.

 

[davek]

Definitely a Diego fanboy.

Been watching too many highlight reels, and replays of his goal when he was able to run away from the mighty athlete that is Peter Reid.

First, watch actual 90 minute games. Second, take away the image of him lifting the World Cup (which much of his reputation is based on) after his three teammates scored the three goals for Argentina in the ‘86 final. Third, look at his output throughout his career (his time at Barca included). It’s a different story.

Had Messi lifted the World Cup trophy (he would have done if Higuain was Jorge Valdano, and wasn’t such a bottler) then he too would have been elevated purely by association. The image of a player with a trophy gives a false impression of their ability. Higuain scoring that sitter and Messi lifting the trophy wouldn’t have made Messi any better.

Watching footage of them side by side, with the ball at their feet, and over 90 minute games not highlights, Messi is king. I don’t think it’s remotely close. Diego often used his stocky frame to back into players and protect the ball, he could be sloppy at times with the ball, whereas Messi has complete control of it, drops a shoulder and glides past players...they never get near him.

Far more successful dribbles per game, far more goals per game, far more assists per game. Not even close.

"If this, if that, if something else happened..." but they didn't. He didn't have the stature to be a true football legend that would see him stand out and above the rest in history.

The moments came for Messi to transform himself to that level. Those moments defined him, he didn't define the moment.

A great footballer. No question. Just nowhere near the status Maradona has. And he never will. And IMO Ronaldo is Messi's superior in terms of status for what he's done at club and international level: more CL winners medals; two international football trophies to Messi's none.

I;d concentrate winning that debate rather than comparing Messi to a player in a different category altogether.

 

[artetas_biggest_fan]

Missing the point completely. You highlighted the first sentence in the paragraph, a sentence which is negated by the last sentence in the paragraph.

If he did is irrelevant. That wasn’t the point. To bold the crux of the paragraph...Higuain scoring that sitter and Messi lifting the trophy wouldn’t have made Messi any better.

Thats the bleedin point.


Maradona being marked out of the ‘86 World Cup final by Mattheus, with his teammates scoring the three goals, Maradona then walking up the steps to lift the trophy doesn’t make him any better. It’s got zip to do with player ability (unless of course he morphed into the three goalscorers and is responsible for the 3-2 win).

You judge a player based on what they do, not what their teammates do. Being elevated by association, that’s the error.

 

[Rob17896]

If Maradona had played for Barcelona instead of Messi there'd have been no comeback from that scum in the SFs, that's for sure.

The absolute 'kin brass neck on those people who dare to compare Diego with that bottling little dwarf Messi.

Reckon he is far too fat to get around the pitch.

 

[kithnou]

Greatest player of all time.