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Maradona

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Regards the “Maradona woulda done such and such had he played for Barca against Liverpool instead of Messi”

Maradona played for Barca against big Ron’s bang average Man United, and Barca got turfed out.

This isn’t a valid response btw, as both points would be nonsense when assessing individual player ability.
 
Missing the point completely. You highlighted the first sentence in the paragraph, a sentence which is negated by the last sentence in the paragraph.

If he did is irrelevant. That wasn’t the point. To bold the crux of the paragraph...Higuain scoring that sitter and Messi lifting the trophy wouldn’t have made Messi any better.

Thats the bleedin point.


Maradona being marked out of the ‘86 World Cup final by Mattheus, with his teammates scoring the three goals, Maradona then walking up the steps to lift the trophy doesn’t make him any better. It’s got zip to do with player ability (unless of course he morphed into the three goalscorers and is responsible for the 3-2 win).

You judge a player based on what they do, not what their teammates do. Being elevated by association, that’s the error.
Yeah, it's all a matter of luck that distinguishes a Messi from a Maradona. :coffee:

Nope. It's about leading by example with world class performances and inspiring others to maximise their efforts. Cruyff almost did it with Holland in 1974 but didn't, and with a great Dutch team; Messi almost did it with a very good Argentina team 2014; Pele did it with possibly the greatest team of all time in Mexico 1970; Zidane did it with a very good French team in 1998...Maradona did it with a reasonable Argentine team in Mexico 1986.
 
...against defenders who cant challenge or they're booked / sent off, so stay on their feet and allow him to eat up ground.

Messi has great talent, there is no questioning that. But he plays in an era when the cards are stacked massively in the favour of a player like him; El Diego had it the opposite way around. That's why he's a God. The best ever.

You're correct that you can only really compare players from the same era. So lets do that. In the 80s, Maradona wasn't head and shoulders above his peers, with Platini, Zico, Matthaus all very much producing similar performances for their clubs and countries. Even Hagi or Laudrup could be spoken of in similar terms.

Now look at the modern era of Messi and ask yourself who does anything similar to him in even short bursts, let alone for the length of time he's done it? The field whittles down to Ronaldo and Neymar, and neither really do it.
 
A show of hands who here has seen the full 90 minutes of more than 10 Maradona games outside of the World Cup? He played around 600 of those in total so 10 is a pretty low figure.
 
A show of hands who here has seen the full 90 minutes of more than 10 Maradona games outside of the World Cup? He played around 600 of those in total so 10 is a pretty low figure.
I haven't, but rewatch the England QF to prove that your previous post is nonsense. The commentary team are waxing lyrical about him being head and shoulders against anyone else in that era and topping Pele as the best ever.
 
Yeah, it's all a matter of luck that distinguishes a Messi from a Maradona. :coffee:

Nope. It's about leading by example with world class performances and inspiring others to maximise their efforts. Cruyff almost did it with Holland in 1974 but didn't, and with a great Dutch team; Messi almost did it with a very good Argentina team 2014; Pele did it with possibly the greatest team of all time in Mexico 1970; Zidane did it with a very good French team in 1998...Maradona did it with a reasonable Argentine team in Mexico 1986.
In regards to the competence of your teammates yes it’s a huge slice of luck. Put Higuain in the Maradona team, he doesn’t score, no trophy. Put Valdano in the Messi team, he scores, trophy.

Messi’s biggest achievement with Argentina was single handedly (and it was literally single handedly) getting the worst Argie team in history to last year’s World Cup by scoring a hat-trick in a 3-1 win at altitude in Equador, a place they hadn’t won at since 2001.

When Maradona was playing, Argentina were winning youth world championships galore. There was a conveyor belt of class Argie players coming through. In Messi’s entire era, the worst in Argie history, they haven’t won a youth title since 2007. No quality midfielders in the team is often talked about, but they haven’t produced a solid defender in that time either (Ayala was the last). Marcos Rojo would have never smelt the Argie squad in Maradona’s era nevermind start in central defence. This is why they get hammered on a regular basis (conceding 4 vs Germany in being eliminated in 2010, a joke of an Argie team with the managerial clown Maradona in charge, conceding 4 vs France in 2018 in being eliminated).

Tim Vickery (BBC’s South American pundit, and the best in the game imo) said the only time Messi was in a good Argie team was in 2006, when he was only just starting to get into the team at 19. Argentina are big in name only, their team has been [Poor language removed] for over a decade.

You're correct that you can only really compare players from the same era. So lets do that. In the 80s, Maradona wasn't head and shoulders above his peers, with Platini, Zico, Matthaus all very much producing similar performances for their clubs and countries. Even Hagi or Laudrup could be spoken of in similar terms.

Now look at the modern era of Messi and ask yourself who does anything similar to him in even short bursts, let alone for the length of time he's done it? The field whittles down to Ronaldo and Neymar, and neither really do it.
Your right in terms of names being mentioned before him, and the one man who agrees is Maradona himself. He spoke of going into Mexico ‘86 he wasn’t talked about in the same way Zico or Platini were. Think it’s in the Football’s Greatest series where he stated he was only the fifth/sixth name, nothing like the Messi talk going into tournaments.

Maradona did go on to prove he was a class above his contemporaries. The issue comes when he is compared to Messi when the two played in entirely different eras, and one in a much stronger Argie team.
 
You're correct that you can only really compare players from the same era. So lets do that. In the 80s, Maradona wasn't head and shoulders above his peers, with Platini, Zico, Matthaus all very much producing similar performances for their clubs and countries. Even Hagi or Laudrup could be spoken of in similar terms.

Now look at the modern era of Messi and ask yourself who does anything similar to him in even short bursts, let alone for the length of time he's done it? The field whittles down to Ronaldo and Neymar, and neither really do it.
Maradona wasn't just head and shoulders above Platini and Zico, he was another species entirely. That's the very first time I've ever heard of a head to head comparison between either of those two and Maradona.

Messi isn't the best player of his generation. Not in my opinion. Ronaldo is. He has the talent and the honours and the status that takes him above Messi. The very fact that there's still a raging debate about who between Messi and Ronaldo is the best underlines that Messi is a bogus challenger to Maradona. The very least you need to do to be considered GOAT is to clearly be the best of your generation. Messi isn't.
 
In regards to the competence of your teammates yes it’s a huge slice of luck. Put Higuain in the Maradona team, he doesn’t score, no trophy. Put Valdano in the Messi team, he scores, trophy. Messi’s biggest achievement with Argentina was single handedly (and it was literally single handedly) getting the worst Argie team in history to last year’s World Cup by scoring a hat-trick in a 3-1 win at altitude in Equador, a place they hadn’t won at since 2001.
When Maradona was playing, Argentina were winning youth world championships galore. There was a conveyor belt of class Argie players coming through. In Messi’s entire era, the worst in Argie history, they haven’t won a youth title since 2007. No quality midfielders in the team is often talked about, but they haven’t produced a solid defender in that time either (Ayala was the last). Marcos Rojo would have never smelt the Argie squad in Maradona’s era nevermind start in central defence. This is why they get hammered on a regular basis (conceding 4 vs Germany in being eliminated in 2010, a joke of an Argie team with the managerial clown Maradona in charge, conceding 4 vs France in 2018 in being eliminated).
You have to be taking the piss?

Crespo
Ayala
Aguero
Di Maria
Riquelme
Tevez
Heinze
Veron
Zanetti
Cambiasso
 
If anyone has watched that Maradona piece, and imagines how good he’d have been in the current era with player protection, conditioning, player power and agents...

... I’d give my middle nut for the Boca Maradona to sign for us!! :D:D
 
Decent article here:


Personally think that Messi's sheer, exceptional brilliance has actually been clouded by the length and consistency of it, and the fact that he's a fairly benign personality on and off the field. Maradonna just had that "thing", that kind of genius that often goes hand in hand with crap-eating insanity and all the moments that go with it. Regardless of his fluctuating levels on the field, he was never boring. I think it's a bit like how, outside of serious professional boxing pundits, Ali will always be considered great in a way Floyd Mayweather never will be.
 
Decent article here:


Personally think that Messi's sheer, exceptional brilliance has actually been clouded by the length and consistency of it, and the fact that he's a fairly benign personality on and off the field. Maradonna just had that "thing", that kind of genius that often goes hand in hand with crap-eating insanity and all the moments that go with it. Regardless of his fluctuating levels on the field, he was never boring. I think it's a bit like how, outside of serious professional boxing pundits, Ali will always be considered great in a way Floyd Mayweather never will be.
That review is just nonsense. Utter baloney. "He just had a bigger personality than Messi". To set up a straw man like that is beyond contempt.

"Ken Early" whoever he is has just underlined how little he understands about football.
 
That review is just nonsense. Utter baloney. "He just had a bigger personality than Messi". To set up a straw man like that is beyond contempt.

"Ken Early" whoever he is has just underlined how little he understands about football.


Ken Early is a good writer actually, think he raises a few decent points
 
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