Current Affairs Labour and Anti Semitism.......

[Number_25]

I'd just be happier with a far more Socialist Labour Party.Throwing out those MP's who happily accepted their 7k a year rise while the rest of the country enjoyed the fruits of austerity would be a start.

I accept your point, but we're far stronger when we have both wings of the party working in unison.

I want to see proper debate, about policy and how we move forward - not this constant mud flinging.

 

[davids]

I accept your point, but we're far stronger when we have both wings of the party working in unison.

I want to see proper debate, about policy and how we move forward - not this constant mud flinging.

Don't accept it's "mud flinging" I think that any MP selected by the party should gladly accept a freeze on MP salaries and then after a decent period only increases in line with those in the public sector.Before the Labour Party is fit to govern,it needs to get it's house in order.

 

[Number_25]

Don't accept it's "mud flinging" I think that any MP selected by the party should gladly accept a freeze on MP salaries and then after a decent period only increases in line with those in the public sector.Before the Labour Party is fit to govern,it needs to get it's house in order.

I agree with you, but this will take a lot of time. These NEC elections will dramatically shift power toward the "Corbyn" project, and we should move forward from there.

 

[tsubaki]

Popular isn't the same thing as populist. Under no definition of the term was Blair a populist.

Of course he was - that 1997 election was all about the pure and virtuous Labour Party against the corrupt and deviant Tories, and Blair was so desperate to appear as one of the people rather than one of the elite that he changed the way he spoke. The 1997 Manifesto even described New Labour as the "political arm of none other than the British people as a whole" and specifically said the taxation system was skewed in favour of the richest 5000 families.

 

[davids]

I agree with you, but this will take a lot of time. These NEC elections will dramatically shift power toward the "Corbyn" project, and we should move forward from there.

The sooner the career politicians are weeded out the healthier the Party will be.

 

[davek]

Dave, do you think that if those MPs form a new party that no votes will leave with them?

Very few. No party without a social base gets a lot of support. That's one of the laws of politics. You have to represent a class. Labour and the Tories are the standard bearers of class politics. That's why they endure.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Very few. No party without a social base gets a lot of support. That's one of the laws of politics. You have to represent a class. Labour and the Tories are the standard bearers of class politics. That's why they endure.

Not sure that’s true any more tbh. The FPTP system effectively kills off any new party gaining a share of seats that reflects their share of the vote, and people often vote tactically knowing that fact,

A recent survey had 24% of the electorate saying they’d be highly likely to consider voting for a party who were anti Islam and immigration btw.

 

[Number_25]

Not sure that’s true any more tbh. The FPTP system effectively kills off any new party gaining a share of seats that reflects their share of the vote, and people often vote tactically knowing that fact,

A recent survey had 24% of the electorate saying they’d be highly likely to consider voting for a party who were anti Islam and immigration btw.

And I want the Tories to become that party. I'd much rather people be honest about their intentions, instead of this dogwhistle approach to everything.

 

[davek]

What neither of those polls show is the swing. On one poll there's a 4% increase for Labour, on another it's a 7% increase. Further data from yougov showed that only about 12% of people were really bothered about the story and most of them will be voters who are already tories.

This story is basically right wing people, whipping themselves into a frenzy, presenting incorrect information (that most of the public can see) and getting extremely (and increasingly angry) as nobody takes any notice of them. I kind of know this pattern, as this is what the far left are famed for. Positioning a narrative in such a way that it appears black and white, not really considering alternative assessments/interpretations of the event (and abusing people who try to provide this) and not taking any notice of what people outside their bubble say or think.

They have attacked Corbyn too much, and the public have grown immune to it. I always felt that it would have an immediate impact (which it did) but it would wear off. In the election the more personally they tried to attack Corbyn the worse the tories polls rating sunk and the more Labour's increased. There's only so much you can lie about someone until people think it's bullying (I do think there's a bit of that with Trump and the media, and possibly even May & the media).

That's the best case scenario for the Tories. That people agree with them but are basically sick of their conduct. The worst case scenario is that people like Jeremy Corbyn a lot, and that what they are chatting is extremely unpopular. For me it's the Lynton Crosby impact on the party. He is good at coming in at the last minute, spreading some dirt on opponents and getting a quick boost. It's not a long term strategy though which has been shown up.

From a left perspective, I hope they continue to attack Corbyn. It won't stick with the public. People see he is a decent principled bloke. Even if he's made mistakes he does so with the right intentions. People understand that.

Spot on mate. Agree with all that.

 

[magicjuan]

Very few. No party without a social base gets a lot of support. That's one of the laws of politics. You have to represent a class. Labour and the Tories are the standard bearers of class politics. That's why they endure.

There's a roundabout north/south element too, some people south think they are in 'an upper class' (nb not THE upper class) and as such vote tory, and some guardianistas who try to be hip with a social conscience and vote labour while being upper middle class-ish.
There's a broad band within each of the parties that allows people to come and go, mainly because they will swap ideas and tell lies to gain votes. Labour lost it when it gave up clause 4 thereby creating this '3rd way'. It's mainly just a soap opera.

 

[catcherintherye]

Not sure that’s true any more tbh. The FPTP system effectively kills off any new party gaining a share of seats that reflects their share of the vote, and people often vote tactically knowing that fact,

A recent survey had 24% of the electorate saying they’d be highly likely to consider voting for a party who were anti Islam and immigration btw.

The thing is mate your first point kind of kills off your second point. FPTP essentially means parties make compromise. 24% is not enough to win an election and in truth would alienate large swathes of their own vote base. It's an issue the 24% feel very passionately about, but its still quite a small minority of the population.

 

[catcherintherye]

There's a roundabout north/south element too, some people south think they are in 'an upper class' (nb not THE upper class) and as such vote tory, and some guardianistas who try to be hip with a social conscience and vote labour while being upper middle class-ish.
There's a broad band within each of the parties that allows people to come and go, mainly because they will swap ideas and tell lies to gain votes. Labour lost it when it gave up clause 4 thereby creating this '3rd way'. It's mainly just a soap opera.

The North South thing people don't get and it's completely under utilised in terms of political discussion. Beyond the "Northerners are all racist and love UKIP" line that will occasionally be trotted out (liberal southerners love it as it makes them feel superior, right with southerners love it because they can claim solidly voting Labour areas are actually tories, journalists love it as it makes an interesting story, wealthy people like it because it makes working class people seem the racists not blokes like Boris Johnson etc).

The reality is, that we have two countries in England. One that always votes Labour, with a handful of Tory seats, the other that votes Conservative with a handful of Labour areas. A big problem of legitimacy for both parties is that they govern one half of the country with little to no consent. Most Southerners feel they have a Labour government imposed on them, and most in the north feel the same but in opposite.

 

[davek]

Not sure that’s true any more tbh. The FPTP system effectively kills off any new party gaining a share of seats that reflects their share of the vote, and people often vote tactically knowing that fact,

A recent survey had 24% of the electorate saying they’d be highly likely to consider voting for a party who were anti Islam and immigration btw.

Yes, certainly that comes into play in this country.

But even the more seasoned parties like the Lib Dems have a natural point at which their support numerically cant be sustained beyond. There's a lot of sociological reasons for that, but chiefly it's because they represent neither capital nor labour. That's why the Liberal Party faded in the early twentieth century: they once were able to coalesce a patchwork quilt of nonconformists/temperance activists/Home Rulers/Trade Unionists but they were replaced very easily by the birth of the Labour Party which cut through all that identity politics and went to the heart of the matter: The Tories were the party of capital and the working class needed it's own party to face them down.

 

[magicjuan]

I think it’s an issue for Jews. The issue is not about whether Labour can win an election......

It is being made into an issue, not about jews or zionism or jewry but about Corbyn. Anti semitism is scandalous, it is seen by society as being the most pernicious of bigotries. Why? Is it worse than Islamaphobia? Sexism? Racism? Because it is put forward that way and it's easy to see it's being scammed as a proper issue by the blatant hypocrisy of those shouting the loudest. Any bigotry is wrong, one is no more 'special' than any other.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

The thing is mate your first point kind of kills off your second point. FPTP essentially means parties make compromise. 24% is not enough to win an election and in truth would alienate large swathes of their own vote base. It's an issue the 24% feel very passionately about, but its still quite a small minority of the population.

My point was twofold, firstly the idea that people still vote by ‘class’ is largely outdated imo. Secondly you could in theory take a sizeable chunk of the total votes in an election and win few or even none of the 650 seats, if your vote was fairly evenly distributed as opposed to it being located in geographical ‘hot spots’.

24% is nearly a quarter of the electorate mate, the Tories only got 42% of the vote in the last election