Current Affairs Labour and Anti Semitism.......

[catcherintherye]

I was talking about Labour MPS, not momentum a party within a party......

Ok so take Momentum out (40,000 members) you have about 10 MP's who'll leave out of 500,000 people. The question surely has to be, should the party be democratic? Is my vote as a member worth less than someone who works as an MP? If not, why not? Wasn't this what the Blairites fought so hard for?

 

[davek]

To be fair to Corbyn he has done things differently. The issue is his followers on the left haven't and were never going too, as they are not in agreement with that approach.

He's a parliamentarian at the end of the day; his supporters in the membership hold the view that the party is the co-ordinating body for a mass social movement. That causes differences...or has traditionally done in the LP and Labour movement. Corbyn is about as good as it gets in terms of closing the chasm between the two bodies. Still, he will ALWAYS be pulled back to getting parliamentary numbers.

IMO he's doing a good job giving the Tories their head to tear each other to bits. It's a great laugh too!

 

[catcherintherye]

So how many Labour MPs tried the coo v Corbyn remind me ....... at one time he could not form a cabinet.....
OK he did oksih in a GE picking up Ukip Voters but could not win the election v a government in crisis who led a pathetic campaign - I voted for no one - if a decent Labour Leader came along then I would start voting Labour again....
We have a government in chaos and he could not land a blow at PM qt on Wednesday - he can't think on his feet imo the sign of a good leader - parliment is in turmoil atm anyway.....
can't wait for the football to start tbh......

Joe whether you like him or not, we ought to have the decency to reflect things honestly. "He did okish at the last election". Lets look at that statement.

1) Biggest increase in sharp of the votes since the War.
2) 2nd biggest vote share in England and Wales in 1/2 a century.
3) Biggest number of votes cast in England and Wales in decades.
4) Reversed the trend of votes for right wing parties
5) Reversed the trend of social democratic parties on the continent who are polling anywhere from 4-19%.

Corbyns vote was arguably Labour's greatest ever performance at a general election. When you factor in the wider context, the collapse in Europe, the decline in voters they have had, the fact the MP's actively worked against them, he probably achieved the single greatest result in Labour's history, and arguably the greatest result in British political history. It was nothing sort of a miracle.

By "he did ok" any honest interpretation of the data, done so with even a small amount of integrity (beyond our political class) would actually read "performed a miracle the likes of which haven't been sign by any party in any of our lifetime."

 

[davek]

So how many Labour MPs tried the coo v Corbyn remind me ....... at one time he could not form a cabinet.....
OK he did oksih in a GE picking up Ukip Voters but could not win the election v a government in crisis who led a pathetic campaign - I voted for no one - if a decent Labour Leader came along then I would start voting Labour again....
We have a government in chaos and he could not land a blow at PM qt on Wednesday - he can't think on his feet imo the sign of a good leader - parliment is in turmoil atm anyway.....
can't wait for the football to start tbh......

Handfuls of people. As @catcherintherye explains above, the party is half a million strong and 99% denounce the crpyto-fascist Israeli state and their supporters in the LP.

 

[catcherintherye]

He's a parliamentarian at the end of the day; his supporters in the membership hold the view that the party is the co-ordinating body for a mass social movement. That causes differences...or has tradionally in the LP and Labour movement. Corbyn is aboutr as good as it gets in terms of closing the chasm between the two bodies. Still, he will ALWAYS be pulled back to getting parliamentary numbers.

IMO he's doing a good job giving the Tories their head to tear each other to bits. It's a great laugh too!

The truth is mate, Labour and Corbyn shouldn't be in the same party. If it weren't for the unique quirk of British Social democracy and the fact Labour was ostensibly a syndicalist stitch up between them and the unions it's very unlikely it would have taken this form.

Everywhere else the sort of movement that led to Corbyn emerged outside of Labour. Podemos, Syriza, Left Bloc, Melanchon, Die Linke etc. A mixture of the unique British experience, and in truth Corbyn's complete lack of strategic thinking led to this situation.

Labour would be finished if it weren't for him. I suspect it would be bankrupt. If they avoided that fate then we have at best a party rolling around in the high teens like Germany (do you remember when the centrists held up Schulz as the great antidote to Corbyn!) . At worst it's at 4% like Greece, Germany or Holland.

It's an uneasy truce between both wings. What I'll give Corbyn though, over most of the other left lot mentioned above, is he has not blinked. Syriza blinked with the European Union. He has not blinked even under enormous pressure. For that he deserves credit. Maybe it was good fortune, but in continuing with his own vision he has shown more fore sight in his left bollock than almost the entirety of the political class in both the main stream media, but also the no mark bloggers than exist on social media (declaring UKIP would win).

The problem is, not one of them have the integrity to acknowledge their mistake, so we have the same pattern played over again, based upon lies, ignorance and stupidity.

As for the Tories, yes perfect strategy. I remember Ian Hislop saying initially jokingly that Labour's policy was "just to sit back, say nothing and let the Tories tear themselves apart" before pausing and going "actually a very sensibly sensible strategy" as a throwaway remark. Many a true thing said in jest.

I don't think the Tory supporting commentators really understand the level of screwed they are from this process. This is not a lost election job. It's not even a 97 out for a few cycles job. This has all the hallmarks to me of the Corn laws, or the great liberal defeat of 1918 and slow erosion into irrelevence. Of tory commentators only Hesseltine and Iain Dale have even began to grasp this as a possibility.

 

[Joey66]

Handfuls of people. As @catcherintherye explains above, the party is half a million strong and 99% denounce the crpyto-fascist Israeli state and their supporters in the LP.

Again MPS there were so many he could not get a shadow cabinet at one time.....

 

[Joey66]

Joe whether you like him or not, we ought to have the decency to reflect things honestly. "He did okish at the last election". Lets look at that statement.

1) Biggest increase in sharp of the votes since the War.
2) 2nd biggest vote share in England and Wales in 1/2 a century.
3) Biggest number of votes cast in England and Wales in decades.
4) Reversed the trend of votes for right wing parties
5) Reversed the trend of social democratic parties on the continent who are polling anywhere from 4-19%.

Corbyns vote was arguably Labour's greatest ever performance at a general election. When you factor in the wider context, the collapse in Europe, the decline in voters they have had, the fact the MP's actively worked against them, he probably achieved the single greatest result in Labour's history, and arguably the greatest result in British political history. It was nothing sort of a miracle.

By "he did ok" any honest interpretation of the data, done so with even a small amount of integrity (beyond our political class) would actually read "performed a miracle the likes of which haven't been sign by any party in any of our lifetime."

great all that but he still lost against a vile austerity government.......
the left in europe is out of favour......

 

[Joey66]

Ok so take Momentum out (40,000 members) you have about 10 MP's who'll leave out of 500,000 people. The question surely has to be, should the party be democratic? Is my vote as a member worth less than someone who works as an MP? If not, why not? Wasn't this what the Blairites fought so hard for?

anyone can infiltrate a party when the membership that seen the surge was a mere £3.00- I am retired and still am a member of a Trade Union by the way - I get called a ukipper, a tory etc etc - but Blair did damage the Labour movement towards the end- to me John Mann is a good Labour MP.....

 

[davek]

The truth is mate, Labour and Corbyn shouldn't be in the same party. If it weren't for the unique quirk of British Social democracy and the fact Labour was ostensibly a syndicalist stitch up between them and the unions it's very unlikely it would have taken this form.

Everywhere else the sort of movement that led to Corbyn emerged outside of Labour. Podemos, Syriza, Left Bloc, Melanchon, Die Linke etc. A mixture of the unique British experience, and in truth Corbyn's complete lack of strategic thinking led to this situation.

Labour would be finished if it weren't for him. I suspect it would be bankrupt. If they avoided that fate then we have at best a party rolling around in the high teens like Germany (do you remember when the centrists held up Schulz as the great antidote to Corbyn!) . At worst it's at 4% like Greece, Germany or Holland.

It's an uneasy truce between both wings. What I'll give Corbyn though, over most of the other left lot mentioned above, is he has not blinked. Syriza blinked with the European Union. He has not blinked even under enormous pressure. For that he deserves credit. Maybe it was good fortune, but in continuing with his own vision he has shown more fore sight in his left bollock than almost the entirety of the political class in both the main stream media, but also the no mark bloggers than exist on social media (declaring UKIP would win).

The problem is, not one of them have the integrity to acknowledge their mistake, so we have the same pattern played over again, based upon lies, ignorance and stupidity.

As for the Tories, yes perfect strategy. I remember Ian Hislop saying initially jokingly that Labour's policy was "just to sit back, say nothing and let the Tories tear themselves apart" before pausing and going "actually a very sensibly sensible strategy" as a throwaway remark. Many a true thing said in jest.

I don't think the Tory supporting commentators really understand the level of screwed they are from this process. This is not a lost election job. It's not even a 97 out for a few cycles job. This has all the hallmarks to me of the Corn laws, or the great liberal defeat of 1918 and slow erosion into irrelevence. Of tory commentators only Hesseltine and Iain Dale have even began to grasp this as a possibility.

Brexit will result in a new "middle ground" party - whether next year of in the next 5-10 years. The vacuum is there to be moved into and it'll attract the rubbish of the Blairites and the soft brexiteers from the Tory Party. Nothing more sure than that.

On Labour: yes, I agree, Corbyn has saved it from itself. I oscillate between a position that thinks it's good that the left have remained in it, because relinquishing "brand Labour" would be suicide for anyone seeking power from the left, to a position where I'd advocate toppling the whole edifice and starting a brand new party of the left which could rid itslef of the right wing neo-liberal infection forever. An age old dilemma, I suppose.

 

[Connor]

anyone can infiltrate a party when the membership that seen the surge was a mere £3.00- I am retired and still am a member of a Trade Union by the way - I get called a ukipper, a tory etc etc - but Blair did damage the Labour movement towards the end- to me John Mann is a good Labour MP.....

And yet there was another surge in the build up to the last election and then following said election.

Come on Joe. You can Google these things.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...se-increase-election-general-uk-a7788641.html

 

[Joey66]

And yet there was another surge in the build up to the last election and then following said election.

Come on Joe. You can Google these things.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...se-increase-election-general-uk-a7788641.html

Bruce is good at doing thatlol
Look if here was an election tomorrow Labour would get in after the tories in fighting, and upsetting the membership but even with a minority Corbyn could not get a vote of no confidence.......
why poor leadership imo......

 

[Connor]

Hmmm.

 

[tsubaki]

It’s really about not adopting what everybody else seems to accept as antisemitism.....from the Labour supporting Guardian....

“Thus in today’s Labour party, it is possible to argue that Israel is a Nazi-like state that should be wiped from the map, and that any Jews who say otherwise are probably paid by Israel to do so, and not be hauled up for antisemitism. You may be told that your language is insensitive or impolite and asked to go on an education course, but your anti-racist reputation will remain intact.”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/18/labour-antisemitism-code-jeremy-corbyn

The thing is though that it isn't and Dave Rich knows this. People, including MPs, have been "hauled up for antisemitism" over saying exactly that.

 

[tsubaki]

The truth is mate, Labour and Corbyn shouldn't be in the same party. If it weren't for the unique quirk of British Social democracy and the fact Labour was ostensibly a syndicalist stitch up between them and the unions it's very unlikely it would have taken this form.

Everywhere else the sort of movement that led to Corbyn emerged outside of Labour. Podemos, Syriza, Left Bloc, Melanchon, Die Linke etc. A mixture of the unique British experience, and in truth Corbyn's complete lack of strategic thinking led to this situation.

Labour would be finished if it weren't for him. I suspect it would be bankrupt. If they avoided that fate then we have at best a party rolling around in the high teens like Germany (do you remember when the centrists held up Schulz as the great antidote to Corbyn!) . At worst it's at 4% like Greece, Germany or Holland.

It's an uneasy truce between both wings. What I'll give Corbyn though, over most of the other left lot mentioned above, is he has not blinked. Syriza blinked with the European Union. He has not blinked even under enormous pressure. For that he deserves credit. Maybe it was good fortune, but in continuing with his own vision he has shown more fore sight in his left bollock than almost the entirety of the political class in both the main stream media, but also the no mark bloggers than exist on social media (declaring UKIP would win).

The problem is, not one of them have the integrity to acknowledge their mistake, so we have the same pattern played over again, based upon lies, ignorance and stupidity.

As for the Tories, yes perfect strategy. I remember Ian Hislop saying initially jokingly that Labour's policy was "just to sit back, say nothing and let the Tories tear themselves apart" before pausing and going "actually a very sensibly sensible strategy" as a throwaway remark. Many a true thing said in jest.

I don't think the Tory supporting commentators really understand the level of screwed they are from this process. This is not a lost election job. It's not even a 97 out for a few cycles job. This has all the hallmarks to me of the Corn laws, or the great liberal defeat of 1918 and slow erosion into irrelevence. Of tory commentators only Hesseltine and Iain Dale have even began to grasp this as a possibility.

I sympathise with some of this, but I couldn't disagree with the first couple of sentences more.

Corbyn is a fairly typical product of Labour - there are loads of people like him in CLPs up and down the country and they provide the backbone of most of those CLPs, the only difference with him is that he managed to become an MP at a time when backbenchers were becoming progressively less and less relevant. This allowed him to speak his mind in a way that would never be tolerated in a Government party that had a small minority, and build a reputation and record that suddenly became relevant once it was clear exactly how little talent remained in the PLP.

Once he realised the leadership was a possibility (which was really early in that campaign) his strategic thinking has been spot on, and its largely remained spot on since (not associating himself with Cameron during Remain, not panicking during the coup, accepting the challenge of May's snap election, and most importantly the way that election was fought). In fact I'd put his political nous against anyone else in the Commons, given that noone else there could have done what he has.

What has let him down is some of his tactical stuff, like this but also some of the failures to respond to the "I am not voting for Corbyn because...." reasons that the gammon come out with, especially Trident (which is based on a fundamental lack of knowledge about how the deterrent works) and defence (where the Tory record is absolutely horrific and yet unchallenged).

 

[abelard]

What has let him down is some of his tactical stuff, like this but also some of the failures to respond to the "I am not voting for Corbyn because...." reasons that the gammon come out with, especially Trident (which is based on a fundamental lack of knowledge about how the deterrent works) and defence (where the Tory record is absolutely horrific and yet unchallenged).

Indeed... For those of us who are not card-carrying Momentum and don't go to Jezfest but would still very much prefer that Labour take power, he can be at least as if not more frustrating than he is for those who wish he was Nick Clegg, and who blame him for not just pretending that Labour Brexit voters and thus Hoey and Field et al don't exist.

And yet for all that, without him, the PASOKification might well have become terminal by now, as @catcherintherye notes.