2018/19 Kieran Dowell

[Kever10]

Yeah there’s definitely an element of that for me too.

Really special players - and let’s be clear he would need to be really special to get away with his lack of involvement and defensive discipline - often light up games even without doing anything. You see them for the first time and just know they’ve got it because of the way they dribble past people or leave someone for dead with a turn or whatever. I’ve yet to see it from dowell, whenever I’ve seen him in a senior game for us (friendlies included) he’s just looked a bit meh.

I feel almost the exact opposite of u on this point. If anything, he has shown this side of his game more than several times, whether it be for us in friendlies, the U23s, England youth levels and at Forrest. The type of player who can change a game or do something magical, but has yet to develop an all round game.

Often these type of players get their chance because of the moments of brilliance and the other bits come later. For other players, it can sometimes be the opposite way round.

Not that I particularly like using him as an example, but Gerrard for them, he came into the team as a runner, a tough tackler, and may have even played fullback at times. He developed the match winning elements to his game as he got older and more comfortable in his role in the side.

Scholes, on the other hand, was a striker, a 6 yard box poacher at that, and often used as a sub. Again, his game developed with time and confidence and he started offering the team more. Its not often you get freaks like Rooney who come into a team and they are just outstanding straight away, and even he would say his game developed as he became more tactically aware and began to offer the team more. Whether that was at the price of his explosive, unpredictable best can be debated for the ages.

But all three certainly had accomplished careers in their respective positions and styles, and none of them where the finished article at 21.

 

[Eggs]

If Brands/Moshiri/Silva are worried that teams in the bottom half of the table are our rivals then they shouldn't be in charge of our club.



What's not to get? Why doesn't every oversees player play great straight away. Why don't all youth players go straight from the u18s to 30 PL games a year? Most players, especially young ones need time to adapt. Why doesn't everyone coming out of uni get a job straight away, instead of employers asking for experience?



If, for example, he went on loan to another Prem club then we'd quite possibly get a better idea of if he's ready for the league than if he stays here.

...of course the aspiration is to get amongst the echelon but we’re not there yet. Seems daft (to me) to loan a player to the likes of Huddersfield who we couldn’t recently overcome at home.

 

[Groucho]

And you accused me of being a wannabe coach for saying he needed to drop back and get involved more.

Fanny.

Don’t resort to insults

 

[Barnfred 55]

Just posted this in the youth team thread but probably more appropriate in here.

I've just watched the whole game back focusing on Kieran's performance.

He had 83 touches during the game.

He attempted 66 passes with a 91% completion ratio. There was a high percentage of forward passes and a number of sweeping long range passes to the wing where he switched play effectively. But the most noticeable thing was how quickly he moved the ball on.

He made 9 crosses during the game (mostly from set pieces) and overall created 6 chances for his team mates.

He made 4 interceptions and 5 tackles during the game.

He only carried the ball 3 times which was disappointing. He lost the ball once and was fouled the other 2 times, one of which resulted in the first goal.

He also only had 1 shot on goal and we've all seen the result of that.

Without the ball I thought he worked very hard. He closed down space well when the opposition were in possession, and covered for both full backs when they went forward. He also worked hard making himself available to pass to when the ball went out to either full back giving them an outlet if they couldn't move the ball forward.

Overall, it was a very high quality but understated performance by Dowell's standards. I believe the stats prove that he was heavily involved in the game, but I thought he played far too deep for my liking. Whilst this was key to our keeping possession and moving it on quickly, he didn't get forward anywhere near enough for a player of his quality, and when he did we saw what happened.

Whilst I'd like to see us try him in a deeper role, I'd prefer to see him play alongside a proper DM with him given more licence to get forward in support of the forwards. Not as a number 10, but more box to box. It's probably too much of a risk to start him there in league games at the moment and, barring another injury crisis, I can't see Silva doing that. But I'd like to see him introduced from the bench when we're in control of games and see how he does. We have a very talented lad here and we need to at least try and integrate him into the team if possible.

 

[Cameron Manning]

Just posted this in the youth team thread but probably more appropriate in here.

I only saw the last forty minutes and agree that Dowell didn't have a bad game but most of his work could have been done nearly everyone on the field, like you say he made some forward passes including a couple of very goog cross field
passes, but a large proportion were simple backward and sideward passes, never ever exerted himself, his goal was excellent, but when Foden ( ?) came on the quality was different, Keiron never ever does enough, he'll stand out and make you take notice once or twice a game but never enough to make you think he will thrive in the first eleven, got the talent, can't repeat that often enough, got to have more than talent to make it to the top, where he can go if he only adds
more to his game.

 

[Philw]

...of course the aspiration is to get amongst the echelon but we’re not there yet. Seems daft (to me) to loan a player to the likes of Huddersfield who we couldn’t recently overcome at home.

Even though we are in a transitional period, we should still be beating them, and considering them below us.

Just posted this in the youth team thread but probably more appropriate in here.

...He attempted 66 passes with a 91% completion ratio. There was a high percentage of forward passes and a number of sweeping long range passes to the wing where he switched play effectively. But the most noticeable thing was how quickly he moved the ball on...

I only saw the last forty minutes and agree that Dowell didn't have a bad game but most of his work could have been done nearly everyone on the field, like you say he made some forward passes including a couple of very goog cross field
passes, but a large proportion were simple backward and sideward passes, never ever exerted himself, his goal was excellent, but when Foden ( ?) came on the quality was different, Keiron never ever does enough, he'll stand out and make you take notice once or twice a game but never enough to make you think he will thrive in the first eleven, got the talent, can't repeat that often enough, got to have more than talent to make it to the top, where he can go if he only adds
more to his game.

I know whom I believe. Also, he scored one, and won the the freekick that set up the first, and that's "never enough"??!

#agenda

 

[Eggs]

Even though we are in a transitional period, we should still be beating them, and considering them below us.





I know whom I believe. Also, he scored one, and won the the freekick that set up the first, and that's "never enough"??!

#agenda

..I get all the loan shouts but I believe he doesn’t want to go down that route. I don’t know, but I imagine he’s been given assurances before he signed his new contract. I still think he’ll get opportunities here, it’s then down to him.

 

[Barnfred 55]

I only saw the last forty minutes and agree that Dowell didn't have a bad game but most of his work could have been done nearly everyone on the field, like you say he made some forward passes including a couple of very goog cross field
passes, but a large proportion were simple backward and sideward passes, never ever exerted himself, his goal was excellent, but when Foden ( ?) came on the quality was different, Keiron never ever does enough, he'll stand out and make you take notice once or twice a game but never enough to make you think he will thrive in the first eleven, got the talent, can't repeat that often enough, got to have more than talent to make it to the top, where he can go if he only adds
more to his game.

A lot of what he did was simple sideways and backwards I agree. It was all one touch stuff and moving the ball quickly which, as I said, was a large part of his play. I didn't count the forward passes but I reckon they accounted for between 30/40% of his overall passes. I don't think that's too bad but I'm sure some stat experts could throw some more light on that. His passing accuracy given the number of forward passes was pretty good too I think.

As for any of the team doing it I'm not too sure. He was obviously given a role to play by the manager and was incredibly disciplined. He actually surprised me in that regard and a lot of what he did off the ball was understated and clearly unnoticed by some. Do I think this is best use of his talents?. No certainly not, and I said as much in my post.

As regards Foden, the whole game is available in the youth team thread mate and I suggest you watch Foden's contribution again. When doing so, bear in mind he has been given the freedom to range forward that Kieran hasn't. He's certainly busier than Kieran but that's his style. And he's a terrific little player who's going to be an absolute star I've no doubt. He did a couple of things in particular that stood out. One was a great long pass out to the right wing, and the other an excellent shot from the edge of the box. But lively as he was, he gave the ball away a lot, I'm talking 5 misplaced passes in 20 minutes compared to Kieran's 6 in 90 minutes. And he didn't create a single scoring opportunity for his team mates. Plus Scotland had 3 times as many efforts on goal in that same period as they had during the first 70 minutes, as Foden's introduction upset the defensive balance of the team.

I'm not having a go at Foden. I just don't think it's appropriate to compare his performance to Dowell's given they both had different jobs to do. Not that I need to. England U21s beat a very defensively strong and compact Scotland 2-0. Kieran scored one and his interception and foul directly led to the second. I think that speaks for itself. But some people will never be happy.

Incidentally, I don't disagree with your overall view that Dowell needs to impose himself more on games if he's ever going t make the breakthrough to the first team. That's absolutely spot on. I just don't think that was the case yesterday.

 

[Barnfred 55]

know whom I believe. Also, he scored one, and won the the freekick that set up the first, and that's "never enough"??!

#agenda

Ha. See my post above

 

[Lanolin]

As noted, he's hardly played this season.







No, you really, really, shouldn't.



Hasn't he only been on one loan? If he stays he won't play enough to become 'tested', because he isn't 'tested' yet. How else is he supposed to get that? He should get a loan to a bottom half prem club, or as others have said possible Germany.

I agree on the calls to play him deeper tho. I think maybe he needs that extra responsibility from playing deeper to force him into getting more involved.

Not really what i'm talking about though. There are plenty of people who can bang one in from 30 yards but that doesn't really equate to the level of 'class' that i'm talking about. I've said before that Dowell reminds me of somebody like Bilyaletdinov, capable of great moments but not actually a great player. There are certain players who just scream quality, and i'd actually agree with the poster below who said a player like Foden has that about him while Dowell doesn't. I've made the point before that the huge majority of the current England squad were at that level by 22, Dowell is 21 and still not even getting on to our bench. He might go on to be the sort of special player i'm talking about, but the truth is it doesn't look very likely.

 

[Philw]

Not really what i'm talking about though. There are plenty of people who can bang one in from 30 yards but that doesn't really equate to the level of 'class' that i'm talking about. I've said before that Dowell reminds me of somebody like Bilyaletdinov, capable of great moments but not actually a great player. There are certain players who just scream quality, and i'd actually agree with the poster below who said a player like Foden has that about him while Dowell doesn't. I've made the point before that the huge majority of the current England squad were at that level by 22, Dowell is 21 and still not even getting on to our bench. He might go on to be the sort of special player i'm talking about, but the truth is it doesn't look very likely.

I must have been confused by when you said:

You see them for the first time and just know they’ve got it because of the way they dribble past people or leave someone for dead with a turn or whatever. I’ve yet to see it from dowell, whenever I’ve seen him in a senior game for us (friendlies included)

And see Barnfred's reply re: Foden.

 

[Lanolin]

I must have been confused by when you said:





And see Barnfred's reply re: Foden.

Yes you must have been. I (pretty obviously I thought but there you go) didn't mean that anyone who has ever turned someone or dribbled past someone is top class, but the way in which somebody does something hints at a special kind of talent. Obviously much of that is just down to personal perception but I stand by what i'm saying.

 

[Lanolin]

I feel almost the exact opposite of u on this point. If anything, he has shown this side of his game more than several times, whether it be for us in friendlies, the U23s, England youth levels and at Forrest. The type of player who can change a game or do something magical, but has yet to develop an all round game.

Often these type of players get their chance because of the moments of brilliance and the other bits come later. For other players, it can sometimes be the opposite way round.

Not that I particularly like using him as an example, but Gerrard for them, he came into the team as a runner, a tough tackler, and may have even played fullback at times. He developed the match winning elements to his game as he got older and more comfortable in his role in the side.

Scholes, on the other hand, was a striker, a 6 yard box poacher at that, and often used as a sub. Again, his game developed with time and confidence and he started offering the team more. Its not often you get freaks like Rooney who come into a team and they are just outstanding straight away, and even he would say his game developed as he became more tactically aware and began to offer the team more. Whether that was at the price of his explosive, unpredictable best can be debated for the ages.

But all three certainly had accomplished careers in their respective positions and styles, and none of them where the finished article at 21.

Sorry to clog the thread up but I'm not great at the old multi reply thing. I've replied to someone else making the same point really. Obviously Dowell has the ability to do great things, but so do loads of players. What i'm trying to say is that some players just seem to possess that 'x factor', there's just something about them that really makes you think they're special. I haven't seen it from Dowell. I would expect a truly exceptional talent (which is what i'm talking about, as I said at the time) to look absolutely magnificent at under 21 level, like they're on a different planet to their colleagues. Dowell actually regularly looks like one of the less talented ones though, in my opinion (oh,and seemingly that of his coach, and most of the managers he's ever had).

 

[blueblue]

Sorry to clog the thread up but I'm not great at the old multi reply thing. I've replied to someone else making the same point really. Obviously Dowell has the ability to do great things, but so do loads of players. What i'm trying to say is that some players just seem to possess that 'x factor', there's just something about them that really makes you think they're special. I haven't seen it from Dowell. I would expect a truly exceptional talent (which is what i'm talking about, as I said at the time) to look absolutely magnificent at under 21 level, like they're on a different planet to their colleagues. Dowell actually regularly looks like one of the less talented ones though, in my opinion (oh,and seemingly that of his coach, and most of the managers he's ever had).

I think that when people look at the great players they can see the skill and the vision they have but sometimes the work rate and effort they put in is not as easily noticed.

 

[Lanolin]

I think that when people look at the great players they can see the skill and the vision they have but sometimes the work rate and effort they put in is not as easily noticed.

Yes absolutely. I would also take it a step further. You see a lot of people saying things like ‘talent isn’t always enough’ - which is absolutely true - but I also think you have to take into account that there’s more to ‘talent’ than just being able to score from outside the box and play a nice ball with the outside of your foot. As well as working hard to maximise talent, there’s also the sort of talent that’s in your head, like knowing where to be and when, knowing the right time to do things, and being able to do things more often than not.

I’d say players like mirallas, bilyaletdinov, deulofeu etc all had lots of ‘talent’ in that sense, and probably worked hard (to try and improve I mean, not necessarily busting a gut out on the pitch) but ultimately they weren’t quite good enough to be brilliant. It happens, there’s no shame in it.

In my opinion dowell also looks short of that really top level of players, so I think he needs to work very hard on his weaknesses to make sure he can have a career at PL level, because I don’t think he’s good enough to be carried on the basis of his ball skills.