Jordan Peterson Thread.

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@mezzrow when you say:

"To me, he's a beacon on how to find meaning in a life where you have options and the alternative is just sitting here waiting to die. My scope has enlarged considerably and a lot of people are doing better as a result. One of them is me."

What do you mean? Nothing I have ever heard him say suggests any of that. I am actually interested in your response...especially on a personal level.
 
@mezzrow when you say:

"To me, he's a beacon on how to find meaning in a life where you have options and the alternative is just sitting here waiting to die. My scope has enlarged considerably and a lot of people are doing better as a result. One of them is me."

What do you mean? Nothing I have ever heard him say suggests any of that. I am actually interested in your response...especially on a personal level.
His whole thing is about meaning. If you live with happiness as a goal, what's your life going to be like when the most cherished people in your life die or suffer? You should listen to him talk about his daughter and her troubles. You won't find any happiness in those times, but you can find meaning by dealing with them in a responsible manner and doing what you can to make the burden lighter on others by your example. If you likewise make meaning your goal in the good times, you will find much available happiness along the road to life. If you haven't gotten that message along the way, you haven't been listening to the Peterson that I've been listening to.

 
His whole thing is about meaning. If you live with happiness as a goal, what's your life going to be like when the most cherished people in your life die or suffer? You should listen to him talk about his daughter and her troubles. You won't find any happiness in those times, but you can find meaning by dealing with them in a responsible manner and doing what you can to make the burden lighter on others by your example. If you likewise make meaning your goal in the good times, you will find much available happiness along the road to life. If you haven't gotten that message along the way, you haven't been listening to the Peterson that I've been listening to.



Thanks I will watch it later. I suppose the only things I have listened to are the politically charged things where he's basically presenting a very opposing view to mine in a provacative way.
 
Cheese, you're a solid case study in how a significant faction of the Left are instinctively against JP and reason this subjectively, yet are selling it as objective reasoning. There's some interesting psychology at work here and it goes some way to explain a few things, we can see this because you show willingness to engage & respond to those apparently opposite to your viewpoint.

Tho' no need to respond to my blabber below if you can't be arsed, mate. I just hope you at least understand a little of my attempt at objective reasoning as I try to get to the core of what's happening here.



He rails against race equality and gender equality in the workplace as an example. Yet he claims that everyone should have equality of opportunity.

Firstly, you're still not providing a link where he does this. It's impossible for me to form any kind of view on your opinion as I don't know the source you're using to form it.

It's like when you say about Durham Council "just expressing disagreement". It's not, really, is it? Now that we see what they really said, we see it's a very heavy & specific accusation of racism, violent misogyny & transphobia. That's not "just expressing disagreement".

Secondly, how does the bolded bit above make JP a racist & misogynist? If he is railing against a system which he believes does not promote equality of opportunity then that's not evidence of a racist belief system. We really need to see exactly what he's saying so we know where you're coming from.

He contradicts himself all of the time because he is pretending we don't have centuries long inequality that still exists today.

Are you really certain he is pretending that? I'm sure JP's aware of slavery and the lack of full civil rights before the 60's.


Regarding white privilege. Deny it's existence because of laws passed in the 1960's utterly ridiculous and infuriating. I have experienced white privilege in the American south. Denying it's existence may not be racist by definition but it certain empowers racists.

It clearly doesn't exist in the legal or societal-structural sense. It's not like Apartheid. There's no policy which says anything about racial privilige.

White privilige is a social theory which depending on how you look at it may exist profoundly or not at all. As with almost all social theories, it likely exists in some places for some people, and not for other places and other people (of all shades). There's room for debate there.

So yes, denying its existence isn't in itself a racist thing to do. It depends how it's denied, in what context it's denied, and what the denier is effectively trying to communicate. If the denial empowers racists then we call out the racists, not the denier.

Example of why your way is counter-productive: Bret Weinstein when he was a uni-professor was damned for apparently empowering racists because he stood against plans to encourage white students to take a leave of absence for one day. He was even called a racist himself. If a racist feels empowered because of what Weinstein stood for, does that mean Weinstein has to abandon this one principle to shake off this one branch of support? What about all the non-racist (including black students) people who supported this one principle of his? Does their support count for less than a worthless racist?

The focus is wrong. The wrong people get damned. The reaction to this damning is the most important aspect of all (Brexit, Trump, IDW, AfD etc).

JP example: I'm willing to bet a fair few of JP's new fans are genuine racists and/or misogynists. That type of person swarming to JP is one reaction (of many) to this damning I'm referring to above. There are however far more non-racists, non-misogynists, who are also swarming to JP in reaction to the outrage industry (empirical evidence: the nature of thousands of supportive online comments I've read have been almost-exclusively non-racist/misogynist). The racist and the non-racist may like JP for the same reason (he is railing against Left-doctrined identity politics) but only the racist feels his racism is being empowered.

You see what I'm getting at? The Left are giving so much weight & value to what a racist may think that it overshadows everything else, amplifying it to a point where non-racists get labelled racist themselves because there is fear the actual racist has supported something the non-racist has said (something which on its own wasn't a racist thing to say). And all the other good stuff the non-racist says with its high intellectual & moral value, good stuff which far outweighs the influence a small number of racist JP-followers have, is dismissed by the Left as non-valuable

The focus is all wrong. By negatively-focussing & amplifying on the small amount of scum in the pond we're damning the whole pond (goldfish and all) as scum.
 
Cheese, you're a solid case study in how a significant faction of the Left are instinctively against JP and reason this subjectively, yet are selling it as objective reasoning. There's some interesting psychology at work here and it goes some way to explain a few things, we can see this because you show willingness to engage & respond to those apparently opposite to your viewpoint.

Tho' no need to respond to my blabber below if you can't be arsed, mate. I just hope you at least understand a little of my attempt at objective reasoning as I try to get to the core of what's happening here.





Firstly, you're still not providing a link where he does this. It's impossible for me to form any kind of view on your opinion as I don't know the source you're using to form it.

It's like when you say about Durham Council "just expressing disagreement". It's not, really, is it? Now that we see what they really said, we see it's a very heavy & specific accusation of racism, violent misogyny & transphobia. That's not "just expressing disagreement".

Secondly, how does the bolded bit above make JP a racist & misogynist? If he is railing against a system which he believes does not promote equality of opportunity then that's not evidence of a racist belief system. We really need to see exactly what he's saying so we know where you're coming from.



Are you really certain he is pretending that? I'm sure JP's aware of slavery and the lack of full civil rights before the 60's.




It clearly doesn't exist in the legal or societal-structural sense. It's not like Apartheid. There's no policy which says anything about racial privilige.

White privilige is a social theory which depending on how you look at it may exist profoundly or not at all. As with almost all social theories, it likely exists in some places for some people, and not for other places and other people (of all shades). There's room for debate there.

So yes, denying its existence isn't in itself a racist thing to do. It depends how it's denied, in what context it's denied, and what the denier is effectively trying to communicate. If the denial empowers racists then we call out the racists, not the denier.

Example of why your way is counter-productive: Bret Weinstein when he was a uni-professor was damned for apparently empowering racists because he stood against plans to encourage white students to take a leave of absence for one day. He was even called a racist himself. If a racist feels empowered because of what Weinstein stood for, does that mean Weinstein has to abandon this one principle to shake off this one branch of support? What about all the non-racist (including black students) people who supported this one principle of his? Does their support count for less than a worthless racist?

The focus is wrong. The wrong people get damned. The reaction to this damning is the most important aspect of all (Brexit, Trump, IDW, AfD etc).

JP example: I'm willing to bet a fair few of JP's new fans are genuine racists and/or misogynists. That type of person swarming to JP is one reaction (of many) to this damning I'm referring to above. There are however far more non-racists, non-misogynists, who are also swarming to JP in reaction to the outrage industry (empirical evidence: the nature of thousands of supportive online comments I've read have been almost-exclusively non-racist/misogynist). The racist and the non-racist may like JP for the same reason (he is railing against Left-doctrined identity politics) but only the racist feels his racism is being empowered.

You see what I'm getting at? The Left are giving so much weight & value to what a racist may think that it overshadows everything else, amplifying it to a point where non-racists get labelled racist themselves because there is fear the actual racist has supported something the non-racist has said (something which on its own wasn't a racist thing to say). And all the other good stuff the non-racist says with its high intellectual & moral value, good stuff which far outweighs the influence a small number of racist JP-followers have, is dismissed by the Left as non-valuable

The focus is all wrong. By negatively-focussing & amplifying on the small amount of scum in the pond we're damning the whole pond (goldfish and all) as scum.

I really can't be arsed for this long form debate. Denying white privilege is patently wrong though because it absolutely does exist. I have benefitted on at least two proveable (meaning it was proven to me) occasions and there are numerous other things that have happened it my life that I suspect have happened because of it.

The more vehemently he denies it the more infuriating it is, because it just makes his followers also deniers. Which in and of itself is playing identity politics.

The left are not the only ones guilty of playing identity politics. It basically won Trump the election by demonizing Muslims and Mexicans while whipping his crowds up into a fevered frenzy.
 
I really can't be arsed for this long form debate. Denying white privilege is patently wrong though because it absolutely does exist. I have benefitted on at least two proveable (meaning it was proven to me) occasions and there are numerous other things that have happened it my life that I suspect have happened because of it.

The more vehemently he denies it the more infuriating it is, because it just makes his followers also deniers. Which in and of itself is playing identity politics.

The left are not the only ones guilty of playing identity politics. It basically won Trump the election by demonizing Muslims and Mexicans while whipping his crowds up into a fevered frenzy.

You're using empirical evidence (as am I) when judging what white privilege is, so we're both guilty of subjective reasoning. It means there's no right or wrong answer as to whether white privilege exists as the all-encompassing dominant thing it's claimed to be.

As @mezzrow suggested check out JP's non-political talks. That's what he's really about and that's why he has so much goodwill in the bank. It may heighten your respect for the man and thus devalue the negative things you feel about him.
 
You're using empirical evidence (as am I) when judging what white privilege is, so we're both guilty of subjective reasoning. It means there's no right or wrong answer as to whether white privilege exists as the all-encompassing dominant thing it's claimed to be.

As @mezzrow suggested check out JP's non-political talks. That's what he's really about and that's why he has so much goodwill in the bank. It may heighten your respect for the man and thus devalue the negative things you feel about him.

Well just to tell you the two instinces in which I know I experienced white privilege...

I got a job back in college that I was not qualified for in the least bit. No experience, no skill...I got it because I was white (yes the hiring manager was eventually fired for his blatant racist remarks after he was reported by myself and others).

I also rented a condo from a an owner who later proved to be a racist. He made it clear that he only rented to white folks during a repair situation.

I strongly suspect I got out of a DUI when a good ol' boy pulled me over in Houston. I was absolutely stupid drunk. He didn't even make me do a drunk test. He let me off with a warning for an illegal lane change and speeding. I was absolutely hammered. One of two times I have driven drunk (like really a danger to myself and others)...both in my early/mid 20's. I know it's not proveable because we can't ask him why he let me off.

There are many other examples of this sort of thing, but we are getting into TL;DR range for me...it's all empirical anyway.
 
...it's all empirical anyway.

Yep. Your examples are fairly indicative of US society, I grant you that. It's a good positive thing that you recognise these experiences for what they are (racism: believing whites are superior) and publicly show your displeasure.

It means that white privilege exists if you define it that way (some racist people you met valued you more because you're white = you experienced white privilege). You experienced it as microcosm as it's fair to say such experiences are relatively common. So it's understandable you expand that microcosm to an entire nation. Your nation happens to influence the rest of Western culture in huge ways. US leads, the rest follow.

Whether US-based or Europe-based: how fair is it to say every white person is automatically privileged in all ways, and every black person thus automatically disadvantaged? It's too simplistic, there will be counter-examples to offset it somewhat (positive discrimination, white trash poverty). Not every white person automatically has known this privilege status. Tho' you could argue all white people have some automatic privileges just because they're white: the most obvious US example is not being insanely brutalised by police. But this is one aspect of potential privilege (not being shot by police). The contemporary concept of White Privilege is being sold as privilege in all aspects (a "head-start in life"), but this is firstly unprovable and secondly has enough counter-examples to relegate white privilege to subjective experience (albeit common) rather than a fact of society (like apartheid in ZA was).

So does it exist? It depends how you define it. Yes it does in the form of common subjective experience as you've described. No it doesn't when in the form of it being an all-encompassing head-start to life for all whites. If I believe the latter, it doesn't make me a racist.

More useful than debating its existence is considering what happens if you choose to sell it like the all-encompassing head-start to life for all whites.

Ultimately it's divisive to focus on who has what privilege, even more so to assign all people from that group with all possible privileges. It breeds contempt as the non-privileged & priviliged groups view each other with increased suspicion. Jealousy, for one, becomes more present than it should. Resentment too. Ostensibly innocent people (of all shades) get negative vibes. There's less positive be-yourself vibes, less treat others how you would like to be treated. More he has unfair advantages over me. It's not healthy.

I believe it's more beneficial to focus on specific wrongs: protect victims, punish offenders, educate wider society. The police-brutality/panicked-fatal-shooting examples should've been a far bigger scandal than they have been. It's beyond outrageous, beyond disgusting. These are real horrendous things that have happened, with real victims and real perps. We should focus incessantly on that rather than abstract catch-all concepts which label entire groups negatively.


After I wrote this, I was curious what exactly JP said about white privilege. Here's his quote and he does word it a lot stronger than I do, and language matters. His more provocative & aggressive style may put off some who'd otherwise be willing to understand his reasoning. But we're roughly on the same page, especially the bold bit, tho' I wouldn't call being labelled privileged a crime, I'd argue it's a potential burden:

"I think the idea of white privilege is absolutely reprehensible. And it's not because white people aren't privileged. You know, we have all sorts of privileges, and most people have privileges of all sorts, and you should be grateful for your privileges and work to deserve them, I would say. But, the idea that you can target an ethnic group with a collective crime, regardless of the specific innocence or guilt of the constituent elements of that group, there is absolutely nothing that's more racist than that. It's absolutely abhorrent."
 
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His whole thing is about meaning. If you live with happiness as a goal, what's your life going to be like when the most cherished people in your life die or suffer? You should listen to him talk about his daughter and her troubles. You won't find any happiness in those times, but you can find meaning by dealing with them in a responsible manner and doing what you can to make the burden lighter on others by your example. If you likewise make meaning your goal in the good times, you will find much available happiness along the road to life. If you haven't gotten that message along the way, you haven't been listening to the Peterson that I've been listening to.



I got to 8:05 before he pissed me off. "Women know what they have to do, men have to figure it out." Absolute horseshit.

Let's say he's right that biologically and psychologically (to some degree) that child bearing and nuturing those children are predetermined. Don't women in today's society also have to (in most places in America) have to completely figure out how to balance motherhood AND a career? Peterson in his head is living in Leave It to Beaver land.
 
Yep. Your examples are fairly indicative of US society, I grant you that. It's a good positive thing that you recognise these experiences for what they are (racism: believing whites are superior) and publicly show your displeasure.

It means that white privilege exists if you define it that way (some racist people you met valued you more because you're white = you experienced white privilege). You experienced it as microcosm as it's fair to say such experiences are relatively common. So it's understandable you expand that microcosm to an entire nation. Your nation happens to influence the rest of Western culture in huge ways. US leads, the rest follow.

Whether US-based or Europe-based: how fair is it to say every white person is automatically privileged in all ways, and every black person thus automatically disadvantaged? It's too simplistic, there will be counter-examples to offset it somewhat (positive discrimination, white trash poverty). Not every white person automatically has known this privilege status. Tho' you could argue all white people have some automatic privileges just because they're white: the most obvious US example is not being insanely brutalised by police. But this is one aspect of potential privilege (not being shot by police). The contemporary concept of White Privilege is being sold as privilege in all aspects (a "head-start in life"), but this is firstly unprovable and secondly has enough counter-examples to relegate white privilege to subjective experience (albeit common) rather than a fact of society (like apartheid in ZA was).

So does it exist? It depends how you define it. Yes it does in the form of common subjective experience as you've described. No it doesn't when in the form of it being an all-encompassing head-start to life for all whites. If I believe the latter, it doesn't make me a racist.

More useful than debating its existence is considering what happens if you choose to sell it like the all-encompassing head-start to life for all whites.

Ultimately it's divisive to focus on who has what privilege, even more so to assign all people from that group with all possible privileges. It breeds contempt as the non-privileged & priviliged groups view each other with increased suspicion. Jealousy, for one, becomes more present than it should. Resentment too. Ostensibly innocent people (of all shades) get negative vibes. There's less positive be-yourself vibes, less treat others how you would like to be treated. More he has unfair advantages over me. It's not healthy.

I believe it's more beneficial to focus on specific wrongs: protect victims, punish offenders, educate wider society. The police-brutality/panicked-fatal-shooting examples should've been a far bigger scandal than they have been. It's beyond outrageous, beyond disgusting. These are real horrendous things that have happened, with real victims and real perps. We should focus incessantly on that rather than abstract catch-all concepts which label entire groups negatively.


After I wrote this, I was curious what exactly JP said about white privilege. Here's his quote and he does word it a lot stronger than I do, and language matters. His more provocative & aggressive style may put off some who'd otherwise be willing to understand his reasoning. But we're roughly on the same page, especially the bold bit, tho' I wouldn't call being labelled privileged a crime, I'd argue it's a potential burden:

"I think the idea of white privilege is absolutely reprehensible. And it's not because white people aren't privileged. You know, we have all sorts of privileges, and most people have privileges of all sorts, and you should be grateful for your privileges and work to deserve them, I would say. But, the idea that you can target an ethnic group with a collective crime, regardless of the specific innocence or guilt of the constituent elements of that group, there is absolutely nothing that's more racist than that. It's absolutely abhorrent."

Not gonna break all that down Holliday. I simply don't have the energy to do so. No idea how you do.

I simply can't be onboard with white privilege not existing, because it does.

Are 100% of white people born into a place of advantage? Certainly not, and more certainly not in all aspects of life. White Privilege in America is not an absolute...it varies by state/region.

It just pisses me off that people actually think that somehow the 1960's was a demarcation line and that because laws are in place it simply can't be real.

Was a white kid born in Alabama in 1968 not more likely to be born into a more advantageous position than a black kid? Certainly not 100% of the time, but the likelihood was probably 80-20 if I'm being generous. How much did that change by 1978? 88? 98? I am certain it has improved and honestly couldn't give actual data to show it or speculate where it exactly stands today. (If I really wanted to I could spend hours on census.gov and Zillow to sort it out via property values and demograpshics).
 
Not gonna break all that down Holliday. I simply don't have the energy to do so. No idea how you do.

I have quite long forum breaks, few months at a time. Right now been on a nightshift which has been fairly uneventful. And I enjoy breaking subjects down with fellow blues to get to core meaning.


Are 100% of white people born into a place of advantage? Certainly not, and more certainly not in all aspects of life. White Privilege in America is not an absolute...it varies by state/region.

Well, you're more aligned then with me & JP than you are with Dahleen Glanton (the writer of that Tribune piece I linked). She is pushing the definition of white privilege which JP & myself are railing against. Here's some choice quotes:

--------------------------------------------------------
"If you are a white person in America, you were born privileged. That’s just a fact. "

"You have a head start over the rest of us."

"White privilege means that you were born with an inherent advantage over every other race of people. The whiteness of your skin alone allows you to leave the starting gate quicker and to run the race with fewer obstacles. "
--------------------------------------------------------




It just pisses me off that people actually think that somehow the 1960's was a demarcation line and that because laws are in place it simply can't be real.

Maybe it's because I'm familiar with what apartheid meant in South Africa: it's hugely significant to not have race-privileges enshrined in law. Racism still exists in ZA, I've been there and seen it, and like you I spoke against it. But since apartheid ended racism (or white privilege) is no longer enshrined in law. It's a significant step in the right direction.


Was a white kid born in Alabama in 1968 not more likely to be born into a more advantageous position than a black kid? Certainly not 100% of the time, but the likelihood was probably 80-20 if I'm being generous. How much did that change by 1978? 88? 98? I am certain it has improved and honestly couldn't give actual data to show it or speculate where it exactly stands today. (If I really wanted to I could spend hours on census.gov and Zillow to sort it out via property values and demograpshics).

I'm also certain. This is also one of JP's arguments generally: that life is getting better for the less well-off every decade...worldwide. Less poverty, better education, more opportunities. We, as a world society, are improving and will continue to improve as long as we don't start hating each other for no good reason.
 
@dholliday you said:

"Ultimately it's divisive to focus on who has what privilege, even more so to assign all people from that group with all possible privileges. It breeds contempt as the non-privileged & priviliged groups view each other with increased suspicion."

It's ridiculous to say that saying white privilege is divisive. It's only divisive to those who don't believe it exists.

It's not divisive for those who are marginalized to not accept that they have more to overcome to achieve equality of opportunity.
 
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