Jordan Peterson Thread.

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The City of Durham is a very liberal place so I reckon they are just echoing what the majority of it's people believe. Moreover, this event is in a building owned by the City...hence distancing themselves from the controversial and provacative speaker.

This isn't a defence of crass character defamation lol


There is no doubt in my mind that he has expressed views of racism, misogyny, and has a problem with trans people. He does it in a way where he has plausible deniability. That is why he is loved by white male bigots.

Seems this has stuck a chord with you
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You're implying I'm a white male bigot, which is again playing tribal identity politics (playing the man, not the ball). You do this a lot, it only cheapens your argument. And again, it's why Trump won ("deplorables").

Which racist, misogynistic & transphobic views has JP expressed? If there is no doubt in your mind, they must be pretty obvious. Are you able to provide any evidence for your claim?
 
This isn't a defence of crass character defamation lol




You're implying I'm a white male bigot, which is again playing tribal identity politics (playing the man, not the ball). You do this a lot, it only cheapens your argument. And again, it's why Trump won ("deplorables").

Which racist, misogynistic & transphobic views has JP expressed? If there is no doubt in your mind, they must be pretty obvious. Are you able to provide any evidence for your claim?

Did I imply that you were a white male bigot or did you imply that?

It's crap like that, that JP makes a living off of.
 
Let me expound on that. I in no way was calling you a white male bigot @dholliday. That is not what I said at all. I did however make a provacative and controversial statement.

Because you disagreed with my view and provacative statement you assumed an implication that didn't actually exist. JP does this exact same thing all of the time. It's why he 'owns' people.

I wasn't attempting to own you for the record.
 
Did I imply that you were a white male bigot or did you imply that?

It's crap like that, that JP makes a living off of.

hmm...I note with interest your deflecting the real matter at hand: providing evidence JP is racist/misogynist/transphobic and thus justifying the Council's statement while admonishing JP's reaction.

Because if there is no clear evidence of this (even in the form of plausible deniability) , then those admonishing JP's reaction have little leg to stand on. Then the question is why are they (i.e. you and a few others here, as well as that Twitter-echochamber link) supporting such a thin premise?

This goes back to my earlier post requesting @Prevenger17 ask JP a question:
Is the relentless negative focus on you from the mainstream Left because you are succeeding in helping young men discover their masculinity in positive ways?

Given how much good work JP is doing for male depression, and how much value we put into understanding depression in this very forum, I am surprised at how little attention this very important facet of JP's work gets here in his thread. And how much attention on very thin accusations of bad things.

Maybe the anti-JP crowd here also disagree that JP is doing decent work on helping lost men find some purpose? Thus this makes it easier to relentlessly criticise him for other things?


Let me expound on that. I in no way was calling you a white male bigot @dholliday. That is not what I said at all. I did however make a provacative and controversial statement.

Because you disagreed with my view and provacative statement you assumed an implication that didn't actually exist. JP does this exact same thing all of the time. It's why he 'owns' people.

I wasn't attempting to own you for the record.

I believe you, mate, no problem. Me & you have good debates on here and I for one am not interested in winning/owning a debate. I enjoy putting two opposing views out there to see if a balance comes out in the wash (it often doesn't, like).
 
hmm...I note with interest your deflecting the real matter at hand: providing evidence JP is racist/misogynist/transphobic and thus justifying the Council's statement while admonishing JP's reaction.

Because if there is no clear evidence of this (even in the form of plausible deniability) , then those admonishing JP's reaction have little leg to stand on. Then the question is why are they (i.e. you and a few others here, as well as that Twitter-echochamber link) supporting such a thin premise?

This goes back to my earlier post requesting @Prevenger17 ask JP a question:


Given how much good work JP is doing for male depression, and how much value we put into understanding depression in this very forum, I am surprised at how little attention this very important facet of JP's work gets here in his thread. And how much attention on very thin accusations of bad things.

Maybe the anti-JP crowd here also disagree that JP is doing decent work on helping lost men find some purpose? Thus this makes it easier to relentlessly criticise him for other things?




I believe you, mate, no problem. Me & you have good debates on here and I for one am not interested in winning/owning a debate. I enjoy putting two opposing views out there to see if a balance comes out in the wash (it often doesn't, like).

Exchanges like this makes me glad I started the thread. JBP will be here in September. No fanboi seats for mezz, but I'll be there.

The Durham situation is following a predictable and regrettable path. I would hope that the council members attend the presentation, as Peterson has invited them to do so and made tickets available for them. I would hope they have a chance to talk to audience members and exchange views with them as well.
 
hmm...I note with interest your deflecting the real matter at hand: providing evidence JP is racist/misogynist/transphobic and thus justifying the Council's statement while admonishing JP's reaction.

Because if there is no clear evidence of this (even in the form of plausible deniability) , then those admonishing JP's reaction have little leg to stand on. Then the question is why are they (i.e. you and a few others here, as well as that Twitter-echochamber link) supporting such a thin premise?

This goes back to my earlier post requesting @Prevenger17 ask JP a question:


Given how much good work JP is doing for male depression, and how much value we put into understanding depression in this very forum, I am surprised at how little attention this very important facet of JP's work gets here in his thread. And how much attention on very thin accusations of bad things.

Maybe the anti-JP crowd here also disagree that JP is doing decent work on helping lost men find some purpose? Thus this makes it easier to relentlessly criticise him for other things?




I believe you, mate, no problem. Me & you have good debates on here and I for one am not interested in winning/owning a debate. I enjoy putting two opposing views out there to see if a balance comes out in the wash (it often doesn't, like).

Implying that women wear heels to work and put make up on to make themsleves sexually attractive is absolutely misogynistic...even though he is presenting it in a way that excuses male behavior. He believes that there is no such thing as white privilege. Maybe no where you are from or where he is from, but it's absolutely true in America. It certainly isn't as big as it was say 50 years ago, but it absolutely exists. Maybe it's not racist, maybe it is...certainly makes things plausibly deniable though. I would think most black people in America would listen to him deny white privilege and take it as racist. He talks of wanting equality of opportunity but then saying things design to create such equality is wrong.

He is helping depressed white men? How depressing is that. He depresses the hell out of this white male American.
 
Oh and to the last point...I knew you didn't take it that way, but what you did was exactly what Jordan does. Say something provacative...let someone make an implication of something he didn't actually say. That was my point.
 
Implying that women wear heels to work and put make up on to make themsleves sexually attractive is absolutely misogynistic...even though he is presenting it in a way that excuses male behavior.

He put that out there as a thought experiment. We mustn't dilute the meaning of "misogyny", which is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls. Do you really see hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women in this?

For the sake of argument, let's ignore that statement wasn't a thought experiment but in fact represented JP's actual views. He could be fairly accused of sexist stereotyping, perhaps...but misogyny is a level worse than that, he could not be accused of such a crass level of women-hating based on that one statement.

Language is important.



He believes that there is no such thing as white privilege. Maybe no where you are from or where he is from, but it's absolutely true in America. It certainly isn't as big as it was say 50 years ago, but it absolutely exists. Maybe it's not racist, maybe it is...certainly makes things plausibly deniable though. I would think most black people in America would listen to him deny white privilege and take it as racist.

There is no such thing as white privilege in a legal sense...anywhere where there are laws to protect against such. So in the US since the 60's there's been no white privilege. But there is class privilege, and as %-ratio there are more white people in a better economic class than black people. There are also racist institutions (the police) which when looking at the evidence appear to treat white suspects better on balance. On the flip side there's positive discrimination which seeks to redress the balance somewhat.

I understand why some would say there is indeed such a thing as white privilege, and also why some would say that's the wrong thing to focus on. There are plenty of white working class who don't feel that privileged. I believe they voted for a certain perma-sunburnt man because he seemed to acknowledge their existence.

So I disagree that anyone arguing there isn't such a thing as white privilege is a racist. Misguided, maybe. But plain racist? Again, it's diluting language. A racist is a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.

Denying there is such a thing as white privilege isn't that, it's not even plausibly denial that. It's only racist if there are other things that person is saying or doing which is more clearly outing him as a racist (like a Don Black or Richard Spencer would...clearly racist people who aren't worth anyone's time).

There is such a thing as the racist card, and when it's played wrongly, it damages the very cause it claims to fight for. And it's real damage, as there are enough very real problems with racism in USA that everyone should be fighting against. Creating made-up problems that aren't there is distracting and breeding resentment among the white working class (again, why Trump got in).


He talks of wanting equality of opportunity but then saying things design to create such equality is wrong.

I think you've got that mixed up. He believes creating equality of outcome is wrong (as do I), he fully supports equality of opportunity (for all). Unless I missed something and you can link me up?


He is helping depressed white men? How depressing is that. He depresses the hell out of this white male American.

Well, you may not need his help. But there are many reports of those who have needed help and are getting it from his words. Personally I feel happy for them.


So let's go back to the worst of that Durham Council statement:

"Mr. Peterson’s racist, misogynist, and transphobic views...Those who seek to exclude or deny the humanity of others will find no comfort here. We believe that violence against women is horrific and unacceptable under any circumstances. "

From your examples, which I'm assuming are the worst you could find, is he excluding or denying the humanity of others? Is he promoting violence against women?

For if you agree he's not really doing that (not even in a plausible denial sense) then maybe you understand how such a crass accusation can make one fume.
 
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Calling a spade a spade is predictable and regrettable?

reply 1) If Peterson said that, would it be racist? "spade?" That's a loaded metaphor. Some could be offended. This is an example of exactly how JBP has to be careful, btw.

reply 2) You can just not pay attention, mate. Why is it so important to shut this man up in the people's republic of Durham? They'll just move it to another, larger venue somewhere in the triangle and everyone will adjust. This is not good public relations for the folks who are about banning, except for the few in their corner. He could just go to Cary or something.

reply 3) Most of what he's about has turned into just trying to get guys to find a reason to put the controller and the porn down and get out there and make a life. He answers provocative questions clearly and honestly. I don't know why he's that important to you. If it's because he's that important to me, I'm chuffed. His following is about 25% like me - he has a basis and structure for stating clearly that which we have known our entire lives. The other 75% are younger and need to find a path out of their own inadequacy, and to them he's a godsend. To me, he's a beacon on how to find meaning in a life where you have options and the alternative is just sitting here waiting to die. My scope has enlarged considerably and a lot of people are doing better as a result. One of them is me.

If you want to "deplatform" that, you're seeing something that I'm not seeing.
 
I don't have time to respond to all of that. I may not muster the energy when I do.

I said he talks of wanting equality of opportunity yet rails against things designed to help create that equality. Equality of opportunity can't exist if there isn't equal means of at least gaining the opportunity. I didn't say anything about equality of outcome.
 
I said he talks of wanting equality of opportunity yet rails against things designed to help create that equality. Equality of opportunity can't exist if there isn't equal means of at least gaining the opportunity. I didn't say anything about equality of outcome.

Then you must link where he does that.

This whole sub-debate we're having is essentially about defending the Durham Council's statement. The examples you're providing aren't objectively coming close to defending what they said.
 
reply 1) If Peterson said that, would it be racist? "spade?" That's a loaded metaphor. Some could be offended. This is an example of exactly how JBP has to be careful, btw.

reply 2) You can just not pay attention, mate. Why is it so important to shut this man up in the people's republic of Durham? They'll just move it to another, larger venue somewhere in the triangle and everyone will adjust. This is not good public relations for the folks who are about banning, except for the few in their corner. He could just go to Cary or something.

reply 3) Most of what he's about has turned into just trying to get guys to find a reason to put the controller and the porn down and get out there and make a life. He answers provocative questions clearly and honestly. I don't know why he's that important to you. If it's because he's that important to me, I'm chuffed. His following is about 25% like me - he has a basis and structure for stating clearly that which we have known our entire lives. The other 75% are younger and need to find a path out of their own inadequacy, and to them he's a godsend. To me, he's a beacon on how to find meaning in a life where you have options and the alternative is just sitting here waiting to die. My scope has enlarged considerably and a lot of people are doing better as a result. One of them is me.

If you want to "deplatform" that, you're seeing something that I'm not seeing.

1. It's in reference to a gardening tool. If someone were to make a leap like that it is on them.

2. They are just expressing disagreement. They are not shutting down his right to free speech. They are not attempting to deplatform him. They are clearing stating that Durham is a city of acceptance and inclusiveness.

3. He is provacative and controversial. I am actually surprised that his 15 minutes are still going. He normalizes anything that he disagrees with and his followers (it is a bit cult like) believe every word. Denying white privilege in the American South is outrageous.
 
Then you must link where he does that.

This whole sub-debate we're having is essentially about defending the Durham Council's statement. The examples you're providing aren't objectively coming close to defending what they said.

He rails against race equality and gender equality in the workplace as an example. Yet he claims that everyone should have equality of opportunity. He contradicts himself all of the time because he is pretending we don't have centuries long inequality that still exists today.

Regarding white privilege. Deny it's existence because of laws passed in the 1960's utterly ridiculous and infuriating. I have experienced white privilege in the American south. Denying it's existence may not be racist by definition but it certain empowers racists.
 
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