Current Affairs Joe Biden POTUS #46

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I'm not sure how useful the comparisons with Starmer are, because of the specific peculiarities of this moment in the history of both the Labour Party and the US.

One thing that is common to the two is that no matter where you fall on the spectrum, you have to win to be able to govern. Bernie/Corbyn are all well and good and I agree with many many more of their policies than I disagree with... but it means diddly squat if you scare the living **** out of enough of the population that you can't get within sniffing distance of winning an election.

Sanders on polling would have beaten Trump though. The Democratic machine drove a stake through that idea and ultimately cost us the election. Likewise with Labour, we were within votes of winning, and had the almost entire party machinery working against the party.

When their elective representatives stand, it's one thing saying vote for them, but I'm quite aware of who and what they are, and who they represent.
 
Without doubt. I put that a couple of weeks back, and everything I see plays into that more and more.

Trump very successful whipped up a fever about a woman President, on the back of 8 years of a black president, and also invoked the anger towards Bill Clinton as well. This was his great strength.
The Right has spent the best part of 30yrs demonising Hillary, both related and unrelated to her husband.
 
That bold part is where your argument goes off the rails. Every single available bit of data says that this would have been a much more difficult election for the Dems to win (possibly to the point of being impossible, but even if not, then significantly harder) with Bernie as the figurehead.

I didn't see that much from today. However Sanders polled favourably against Trump. Likewise, Sanders was polling favourably against Trump this time (in fact more favourably than Biden was). That's why on both occasions they fixed it so he couldn't stand.
 
Sanders on polling would have beaten Trump though. The Democratic machine drove a stake through that idea and ultimately cost us the election. Likewise with Labour, we were within votes of winning, and had the almost entire party machinery working against the party.
I have much more of a problem with what Labour did than what the Democrats did, if for no other reason (and there are other reasons, but this one's enough) that Bernie AGAIN took the decision not to join the Party, but still to run for President under that party's banner, because there's no way he could be elected without it. Once he does that, it's fairly unreasonable not to expect those who ARE part of the party not to side with the person from inside the tent. Especially when that individual looks MORE likely to defeat Trump.

Either way, the statement that "it was more important to beat Bernie than beat Trump" is just daft. It might hold water if they sided with someone who looked LESS likely to win. But that wasn't the case.
 
I didn't see that much from today. However Sanders polled favourably against Trump. Likewise, Sanders was polling favourably against Trump this time (in fact more favourably than Biden was). That's why on both occasions they fixed it so he couldn't stand.
At no point (excluding possibly some outlier polls) has Bernie polled better vs Trump than Biden. Biden has had the best numbers vs Trump fairly consistently since the day Trump was inaugurated, and people started talking about possible 2020 challengers.

Bernie was generally ahead of Trump nationally, but the swing states were uncomfortably close, and he trailed in some that Biden led in.
 
As a side note, it shows how strong the sexism is that Warren (who didn't have the scary "Democratic Socialist" label attached, and whose policies were *slightly* less far left than Sanders') continually polled well behind Bernie (vs Trump).

She should be President. :-(
 
At no point (excluding possibly some outlier polls) has Bernie polled better vs Trump than Biden. Biden has had the best numbers vs Trump fairly consistently since the day Trump was inaugurated, and people started talking about possible 2020 challengers.

Bernie was generally ahead of Trump nationally, but the swing states were uncomfortably close, and he trailed in some that Biden led in.

I seem to remember Trump V Sanders was more favourable than Biden. The same dynamic than Clinton. Bidens numbers have obviously improved now.
 
I have much more of a problem with what Labour did than what the Democrats did, if for no other reason (and there are other reasons, but this one's enough) that Bernie AGAIN took the decision not to join the Party, but still to run for President under that party's banner, because there's no way he could be elected without it. Once he does that, it's fairly unreasonable not to expect those who ARE part of the party not to side with the person from inside the tent. Especially when that individual looks MORE likely to defeat Trump.

Either way, the statement that "it was more important to beat Bernie than beat Trump" is just daft. It might hold water if they sided with someone who looked LESS likely to win. But that wasn't the case.

They went to enormous lengths to stop Sanders on both occasions. Enormous lengths. Even though they knew with Clinton it would be a bit touch and go (fair enough they might not have known they would lose, but couldn't have known they could win either). Ultimately that remained secondary, stopping Sanders was critical, they would be happy to take their chances after that.

The hatred of the left, that exists in the upper echelons of both Labour and the Democratic heirachies is really underestimated. They are quite happy to risk almost everything, just to stop the left winning. They will even sabotage their own chances to do so.

We have paid a heavy cost too. Tens of thousands will have been consigned to death, millions to unemployment and misery as a result of this government here (especially post Brexit) and in America they enabled a Prime Minister to oversea and champion the slaughter of black people, and camps being built to hold children away from their families. It's an enormous price millions have paid to satisfy their ego's. They'd do it all again in a heartbeat though, if it meant stopping the left.


But yes, I do wonder if I fulfil the criteria of not being critical of Biden haha! I always find that a bit strange, it's often said to me by people who are a lot less critical of people like him than I am!
 
He always seemed to be the very centrist figure. I don't think he plays particularly well to younger, more progressive voters, but as has been acknowledged the alternative is Trump. I mean there's a false dichotomy that exists that it's Biden V Trump in such situations, but really it's a Biden V not voting. The quite detestable nature of Trump probably pushes people who aren't particualrly keen on voting for Biden to vote for him, in a manner that may not have been apparent for Hilary.

The other angle in this, is that sections of what you might call centre right republicans may vote for him, or dislike him too little to want to vote for Trump. He's a fairly innoffensive character. Obama (black) and Clinton (wife of Clinton, a woman) or Sanders (socialist) likely mean they are mor emotivated by Trump. Bidens a bit of a pickle, he's an elderly, white quite moderate man.That seems quite appealling compared to a lunatic in Trump.Apprently the Tea Party have not been as enthuastically for him as in other elections.

These are the dynamics. As I put yesterday, I think the conference season doesn't help him much. It probably re-enforced to people Biden is moderate and capable, while Trump is unrealiable and quite hateable. I don't see Trump really having the discipline to dial it down,appear a bit more restrained and pressuring Biden to take risks. It's not in his nature.

Biden is more competent. The Americans and thier right wing Overton window would have you thinking he is centrist. But let’s face it he is right wing. More competently right ring. A neo liberal corporatist. As you say in a more articulate way; With the people they believe it’s out of the fire and to the comparative better frying pan. But you are getting cooked either way. Capitalism has been slow cooking it’s people for so long. Sometimes they flip them over to do the other side.
 
Likewise wasn't Biden quite supportive of segregation back in the day?
Segregation is a broad term that covered many different things and if you say Biden "supported segregation" you can be taken to mean "Joe Biden approved of separate drinking fountains/restrooms/restaurants/etc. etc. etc. for whites and blacks," which would be ridiculous.

Specifically, some four decades ago Biden was a critic of court-ordered (aka "forced") busing of students to schools outside their own districts as a means of integrating education. That's the issue that Kamala Harris brought up in the debates; she was bused as a child and sees herself as having benefited from the program. Busing was hugely controversial in its time and there were all sorts of arguments pro and con that don't fit neatly in a simple "racist vs antiracist" binary. (It also included class elements: One big complaint in Massachusetts was that the program moved poor kids around the school districts of Boston while leaving the more affluent white kids of the suburbs untouched, prompting charges that lots of white suburban liberals were happy to impose such programs on poor and working-class urban residents so long as they didn't have to abide by them themselves.)

Regardless, please note that Biden was critical of busing rather than of social integration generally.
 
[If anyone's interested in the politics of busing in 1970s America, and more specifically Boston, where it was extra hectic and socially divisive, see J. Anthony Lukas, Common Ground: A Turbulent Decade in the Lives of Three American Families (1985). It focuses on three Boston families involved in and affected by court-ordered busing: a working-class white family in Charlestown, a working-class black family in Roxbury, and a pair of young, middle-class white gentrifiers in the South End. Fantastic book of multiple perspectives and great depth.]
 
Segregation is a broad term that covered many different things and if you say Biden "supported segregation" you can be taken to mean "Joe Biden approved of separate drinking fountains/restrooms/restaurants/etc. etc. etc. for whites and blacks," which would be ridiculous.

Specifically, some four decades ago Biden was a critic of court-ordered (aka "forced") busing of students to schools outside their own districts as a means of integrating education. That's the issue that Kamala Harris brought up in the debates; she was bused as a child and sees herself as having benefited from the program. Busing was hugely controversial in its time and there were all sorts of arguments pro and con that don't fit neatly in a simple "racist vs antiracist" binary. (It also included class elements: One big complaint in Massachusetts was that the program moved poor kids around the school districts of Boston while leaving the more affluent white kids of the suburbs untouched, prompting charges that lots of white suburban liberals were happy to impose such programs on poor and working-class urban residents so long as they didn't have to abide by them themselves.)

Regardless, please note that Biden was critical of busing rather than of social integration generally.

I'm really sorry, but we all understand what this means, and this comes across as needless apologism for Biden.

Very few supporters of racism, or segregation deal with the core issue at hand. They find bits around the edges that are more palatable to chip away at. You see it with the anti-abortion lot here too. They know they can't win the debate on abortion, so they chip away at term limits, bit by bit. They have the same intention (to end abortion) but there's a dishonesty to their objective as it's cloaked.

Brown V Board of Education was a key moment in US history, and a key moment in the dismantling of segregationism. Schooling was of course a very important and significant element of that (as much as water fountains, or toilets etc). If you side with the segregationists on the matter, essentially by finding a convenient loophole and giving political cover to their arguments, you are every bit as responsible for it as they are. In many ways you are more respnsible, as there is a dishonesty to your conduct.

Lets not whitewash people's behaviour here. There is a BLM campaign, that is rightly pointing out how deep racism runs, and ultimately how structural it is. Pretending that certain white men who played important roles in upholding the system should be absconded from this, on the basis of them either not really liking it, or not really understanding it is an insult to the black people who suffered under that system.

As he said himself, he had to work with the racist segregationists to get things done. Thats fine. But he has to own his decision and the understandable flak that comes with it now that he helped to soften and legitimise with cover about busing being unfair. It's nonsense.
 
They went to enormous lengths to stop Sanders on both occasions. Enormous lengths. Even though they knew with Clinton it would be a bit touch and go (fair enough they might not have known they would lose, but couldn't have known they could win either). Ultimately that remained secondary, stopping Sanders was critical, they would be happy to take their chances after that.

The hatred of the left, that exists in the upper echelons of both Labour and the Democratic heirachies is really underestimated. They are quite happy to risk almost everything, just to stop the left winning. They will even sabotage their own chances to do so.
Could you outline what you mean by "enormous lengths", with reference to the 2020 primaries? Biden got a bunch of endorsements before South Carolina as people dropped out, but I just don't see that as some nefarious act. When the likes of Buttigieg dropped out, Biden is simply the natural place for those voters to go.

The fact is that currently, Bernie just isn't where the majority of the Democratic base (much less the country) is currently. He couldn't win a Primary (after failing to turn out meaningfully higher numbers of young voters than previously - which would arguably have been his only path to a GE victory vs Trump) where the voter base is SIGNIFICANTLY further left than the nationwide voter base.
 
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