No but there was no disagreeing, just comments of a personal nature.
Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit
- Thread starter Charlie Sweet
- Start date
- Status
There should have been a clear set and agreed plan between the EU and the UK on what would happen here before the referendum on the eventuality of a ‘leave’ vote. Seems like total complacency that the vote would be to ‘remain’ and it didn’t have to be worried about. Looks a right mess now.
People talking about a return to the troubles of the past are using pretty hyperbolic language in my opinion though.
People talking about a return to the troubles of the past are using pretty hyperbolic language in my opinion though.
Ignore!
tsubaki
Player Valuation: £90m
There should have been, but Cameron specifically ordered the Civil Service to not do it.
Is that right? What a pube
tsubaki
Player Valuation: £90m
But it can’t happen can it because you’d be restricting movement within the Uk , it’d be akin to a border between England and Scotland but with the troubles added into the mix .
This is a huge deal and anybody who doesn’t think it is is kidding themselves. As you rightly say Unionists would oppose it but so would , I suspect , natiionalists who were stopped to have documents checked . You’d need new legislation because the only people who can stop you at the minute are the police for random CT checks and not the immigration as such . Of course as has been repeated frequently here and everywhere worse Let’s not forgot the DUP currently hold the balance of power on the mainland.
I also read here that we could have no checks and have uncontrolled access , I think Pete suggested that . The idea that as a country in 2018 we could have what would be a porous border would terrify me and I’m sure the security services and I’d have thought was absolutely at odds with the very principles of those that voted Brexit.
I’ll be honest I have absolutely no clue about a way to deal with this , no a workable idea that occurs to me and that could find agreement across the board . Fortunately it isn’t my job to come up with one , my concern is I suspect that those in positions of power be that domestic or European are on a similar position .
I wonder, if NI gets special status where it remains in the UK but in the EU single market, could it be a trigger for an economic boom as there would be a huge amount of business relocation to take advantage of having one foot in each camp.
Like you say Harry, I've no idea how this gets sorted out.
Like you say Harry, I've no idea how this gets sorted out.
Charlie Sweet
Player Valuation: £35m
It's really not mate. The Good Friday Agreement was the culmination of a peace process that ended, in effect, a 30-year war. It was a compromise. Today I easily travel between Dublin and Belfast without any hindrance. As a nationalist I can see it as a part way to a united island. Nationalists in the North have Irish citizenship and EU membership. Imposing a hard border and changing the status of Irish/EU nationals within the North changes the terms of the GFA and it is no longer the compromise it was.
That's aside completely from the terrorist gangs that would exploit any border issues for smuggling etc (both sides of the fence).
“If we are out of the European Union with tariffs on exporting goods into the EU, there’d have to be something to recognise that, between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
“And if you pulled out of the EU and came out of free movement, then how could you have a situation where there was an open border with a country that was in the EU and has access to free movement.”
Theresa May said that in 2016, the UK can't have an open border between a country in the EU and one that is out in order to check the free movement of people. That is border guards checking passports i.e a hard border.
The border is coming back Charlie - you know it, I know it, and as they say here, the dogs in the street know it.
Despite multiple requests from the Irish Government and the EU, not once since 23rd June 2016 has the Tory/DUP British government spelt out in any detail what they mean when they claim that there will be no hard border. And in true right-wing fashion they seek to blame Ireland and the EU for the consequences of their decision so as to appease the Little Englanders, as we have seen on here. They won't even listen to the advice of their own elder statesmen Major and Blair, who possess vastly superior knowledge of this issue than they will ever do. Instead they are prepared to ignore the terms of an international agreement to pursue their own selfish aims.
In contrast they have made it clear in no uncertain terms that there will be no border in the Irish Sea; therefore there will be no special status for NI, no staying in the Single Market, no staying in the Customs Union. This means that there can only be one outcome, which no amount of fudging words and deflecting the issue can deny - the return of the border. It will have a devasting effect, particularly for those of us who live and work in border areas. I will more than likely have to either find another job or relocate to the other side of the border.
This is a major step backwards in terms of progress on this island. The future is very very uncertain, of that there is no doubt. There are dangerous times ahead.
Walter Mitty May is in a right pickle and hasn't a clue what to do about the UK leaving the EU.
“If we are out of the European Union with tariffs on exporting goods into the EU, there’d have to be something to recognise that, between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
“And if you pulled out of the EU and came out of free movement, then how could you have a situation where there was an open border with a country that was in the EU and has access to free movement.” This was Theresa May's announcement in 2016.
May said that there can't be an open border between a country with free movement of people (The Irish republic) and one that hasn't (Northern Ireland). Checking passports is a hard border and is against the rights of Irish citizens having free movement on the island of Ireland.
This completely contradicts what she said today.
"Q: [From a French journalist] Isn’t it time you told the truth, that there will be a border in Northern Ireland? Maybe a light border, but there will be a border.
May says she has been very clear; there will be no return to a hard border in Northern Ireland.
And she will maintain the common market of the UK, she says".
Q: [From a German journalist] Is Brexit worth it in the light of what you are saying today?
May says, if that was a question about whether the UK will think again, it won’t. She says the people took the decision. It is up to parliament to implement it, she says.
Unlike some politicians, she is being straight with people, she says".
'Straight with people', you just couldn't make it up. She needs to explain why in 2016 there can't be an open border but now there can. She needs to explain why there will be UK border guards checking passports on the island of Ireland. Because one country has free movement and the other doesn't. She needs to explain how that is compatible with the Good Friday Agreement.
Q: [From ITV’s Robert Peston.] People voted to take back control. But today you are promising not to exercise the control you are taking back. So what was the point of Brexit?
May says people voted to take back control of money, borders and laws. That will happen. In some areas it will make sense to operate on the same basis as now. But the decision will be for parliament.
There will be commitments. But that happens in any trade deal, she says". How can the UK take back control of its' borders without a border on the island of Ireland. Nonsensical.
Her whole speech today was just full of the usual we would like to....But there was no concrete proposals for dealing with the island of Ireland issue. One of the central issues facing the UK.
May needs to resign forthwith as her and her gang of fools are not up to the task.
“If we are out of the European Union with tariffs on exporting goods into the EU, there’d have to be something to recognise that, between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
“And if you pulled out of the EU and came out of free movement, then how could you have a situation where there was an open border with a country that was in the EU and has access to free movement.” This was Theresa May's announcement in 2016.
May said that there can't be an open border between a country with free movement of people (The Irish republic) and one that hasn't (Northern Ireland). Checking passports is a hard border and is against the rights of Irish citizens having free movement on the island of Ireland.
This completely contradicts what she said today.
"Q: [From a French journalist] Isn’t it time you told the truth, that there will be a border in Northern Ireland? Maybe a light border, but there will be a border.
May says she has been very clear; there will be no return to a hard border in Northern Ireland.
And she will maintain the common market of the UK, she says".
Q: [From a German journalist] Is Brexit worth it in the light of what you are saying today?
May says, if that was a question about whether the UK will think again, it won’t. She says the people took the decision. It is up to parliament to implement it, she says.
Unlike some politicians, she is being straight with people, she says".
'Straight with people', you just couldn't make it up. She needs to explain why in 2016 there can't be an open border but now there can. She needs to explain why there will be UK border guards checking passports on the island of Ireland. Because one country has free movement and the other doesn't. She needs to explain how that is compatible with the Good Friday Agreement.
Q: [From ITV’s Robert Peston.] People voted to take back control. But today you are promising not to exercise the control you are taking back. So what was the point of Brexit?
May says people voted to take back control of money, borders and laws. That will happen. In some areas it will make sense to operate on the same basis as now. But the decision will be for parliament.
There will be commitments. But that happens in any trade deal, she says". How can the UK take back control of its' borders without a border on the island of Ireland. Nonsensical.
Her whole speech today was just full of the usual we would like to....But there was no concrete proposals for dealing with the island of Ireland issue. One of the central issues facing the UK.
May needs to resign forthwith as her and her gang of fools are not up to the task.
To keep their interpretation about what leaving the EU should look like, the likes of Johnson, Rees Mogg and the DUP et al are toying with the idea, to make the EU put border checks on the island of Ireland. That has been their rhetoric since it finally dawned on them that the island of Ireland stands in the way of their project. For them there is a stark choice either the UK as a whole leaves the customs union and the single market or it doesn't. When May agreed in December the fall back position of Northern Ireland staying in the customs union and the single market they plotted to bring her down and that was the purpose of that letter signed by hard nosed Brexiteers. It was a warning and it worked because since then she has openly reneged on the December agreement.
They are prepared to renege on the Good Friday Agreement because it stands in their way. They will have to amend the Northern Ireland Act 1989 so as to take out any reference to EU law and the ECJ. This will pose a major dilemma for the Irish government. They will be forced to act on the concession they made regarding the constitutional claim to the north. The upshot will be a big push for a vote in the north for unifying the country. This could be a major turning point towards a united Ireland. The DUP would rather wreck the economy of the island of Ireland than accept no border controls.
Last edited:
There is no chance of trouble on the scale we witnessed in the recent past, that’s for sure.
Those Troubles took root and grew out a much more important issue than which flag flies over Belfast City Hall.....it was about the fundamental civil rights and equality of citizenship which had been denied the ethnic Irish, mostly Catholic, minority in the North since the foundation of the state.
Those issues are largely rectified nowadays, despite the best efforts of the DUP to turn back the clock.
However.....peace is not merely the absence of war.
It is all about removing the casus belli.....and that is what the Good Friday Agreement did.
It established the Principle of Consent which safeguarded the position of the Unionists within the UK whilst leaving the way clear for a future Nationalist majority seeing their country re-united .......and membership of the EU by both the UK and the Irish Republic erased the physical manifestation of partition so despised by the Nationalists. i.e. gun toting British soldiers and customs checks along the Border.
Anyone underestimating the importance of Irish people in, say South Armagh, being able to freely move between Crossmaglen and Castleblayney without hindrance by British officialdom does so without regard to how passionate people in those border communities right along the length of it and on both sides of it resent and detest it.
And the history of Ireland since the border was imposed on those to whom it is quite alien almost a century ago shows it is not an issue which just fades away quietly.
This is why Brexit has much bigger ramifications for the people in NI than it has for the rest of us.
And it is why the question of the Irish border must be uppermost in the minds of the UK negotiators.
It is not good enough for Brexiteers to snarl at Mr. Barnier and dismiss his proposals out of hand.
May and her team need to come up with a better plan than he has.
His notion of a border along the sea suits no one either.
As @Harryflashman says, that idea is anathema to the nationalists in Belfast as much as it is to the unionists.
Though I suspect Barnier knows this and has included it as an attitude adjuster for May.
She needs to step up.
Last edited:
Well written
- Status