Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[zzr45]

What if we simply get Ireland to swap countries with Turkey? Then there’s no need for a flexible border and Ireland’s closer to the rest of the EU.

Fixed. Next.

 

[Charlie Sweet]

I think you are wrong about Johnson wanting a hard border. It is in the UK’s interest to keep borders and trade free and open. This is an EU edict and the anti-Brexit politicians are just using the border as a way to undermine the U.K. leaving the EU. So far, the only people who have proposed a hard border are the EU.......

WTO rules require a hard border.

 

[peteblue]

WTO rules require a hard border.

What do you believe is a hard border, what does it look like........

 

[peteblue]

Pete you keep saying this and it's simply not true.

If the UK leaves and defaults to WTO rules then the UK will be obliged by the WTO to have a border and formal customs arrangements.

I've previously linked statements to this fact from the WTO and discussed at length in the FT.

BBC yesterday “Downing Street has dismissed any prospect of a return to a "hard border" on the island of Ireland after Brexit.”.....now I’m not really sure what else you require to convince you there will be no U.K. hard border between NI and ROI.

The WTO rules scenario is a good point, but what is a hard border in this case. WTO has no rules regarding folk passing over borders, just the trade of goods, so people can come and go as they wish. In respect of goods, 95%+ are processed electronically anyway and have no border checks done. So what we are now talking about is a few pigs or someone doing a bit of plumbing and no one really gives a crap about this anyway. To pretend that no deal will be done between the U.K. and the EU over a few bits and bobs going over the NI border which in respect of our trade figures is sod all of nothing, exists only in the minds of EU bureaucrats or political opportunists......

 

[Charlie Sweet]

What do you believe is a hard border, what does it look like........

Customs checks, border infrastructure in the form of cameras and checkpoints. None of that is acceptable and Theresa May and the UK government have previously said in December none of that would happen. Not only would it be contrary to the Good Friday Agreement but in practical terms it would involve security checks and queues of vehicles on the main roads and God only knows what on the little roads and across the fields that span the border.

The UK enacting Article 50 and going to WTO rules require there to be a Hard Border. So how exactly is this the EU's fault?!

 

[Charlie Sweet]

BBC yesterday “Downing Street has dismissed any prospect of a return to a "hard border" on the island of Ireland after Brexit.”.....now I’m not really sure what else you require to convince you there will be no U.K. hard border between NI and ROI.

The WTO rules scenario is a good point, but what is a hard border in this case. WTO has no rules regarding folk passing over borders, just the trade of goods, so people can come and go as they wish. In respect of goods, 95%+ are processed electronically anyway and have no border checks done. So what we are now talking about is a few pigs or someone doing a bit of plumbing and no one really gives a crap about this anyway. To pretend that no deal will be done between the U.K. and the EU over a few bits and bobs going over the NI border which in respect of our trade figures is sod all of nothing, exists only in the minds of EU bureaucrats or political opportunists......

A conservative estimate has 50,000 vehicle movements a day across the border. That means 2,500 vehicles being checked. However, that 5% figure you're quoting doesn't apply to agriculture which, I believe, is a mainstay of the Irish border traffic. So it would likely be a lot higher in any case.

There are 275 crossing points along the length of the 310 mile border. So you'd need border check points, cameras and soldiers on all 275 points? Or are you about telling the Irish to close up roads?

Maybe it helps if you remember that both sets of border communities are massively opposed to any form of border disruption. The border counties in Northern Ireland all voted hugely to Remain.

 

[peteblue]

A conservative estimate has 50,000 vehicle movements a day across the border. That means 2,500 vehicles being checked. However, that 5% figure you're quoting doesn't apply to agriculture which, I believe, is a mainstay of the Irish border traffic. So it would likely be a lot higher in any case.

There are 275 crossing points along the length of the 310 mile border. So you'd need border check points, cameras and soldiers on all 275 points? Or are you about telling the Irish to close up roads?

Maybe it helps if you remember that both sets of border communities are massively opposed to any form of border disruption. The border counties in Northern Ireland all voted hugely to Remain.

There are over 500,000,000 people in the EU, I won’t even quote the trade numbers for both the EU and the U.K., nor the trade figures between ROI and the U.K., all of which run into either the tens or hundreds of billions. The Southern and Eastern borders of the EU to Africa, Middle East, Russia etc. etc are wide open with illicit goods and people passing both ways. The NI border and whatever passes over it is just noise, it is a grain of sand, but it’s a key political weapon the EU can use against the U.K. in negotiations, and this for the EU is it’s only importance........

 

[peteblue]

Customs checks, border infrastructure in the form of cameras and checkpoints. None of that is acceptable and Theresa May and the UK government have previously said in December none of that would happen. Not only would it be contrary to the Good Friday Agreement but in practical terms it would involve security checks and queues of vehicles on the main roads and God only knows what on the little roads and across the fields that span the border.

The UK enacting Article 50 and going to WTO rules require there to be a Hard Border. So how exactly is this the EU's fault?!

Only in the ROI if the EU demand it, the U.K. has said we won’t do it.......

 

[Charlie Sweet]

There are over 500,000,000 people in the EU, I won’t even quote the trade numbers for both the EU and the U.K., nor the trade figures between ROI and the U.K., all of which run into either the tens or hundreds of billions. The Southern and Eastern borders of the EU to Africa, Middle East, Russia etc. etc are wide open with illicit goods and people passing both ways. The NI border and whatever passes over it is just noise, it is a grain of sand, but it’s a key political weapon the EU can use against the U.K. in negotiations, and this for the EU is it’s only importance........

So you think an effective solution is to just ignore the issue?!?!

In any case Pete - can you not understand that the Irish border is incredibly important to the Irish people (who live both sides of it)? It's been a constant source of tension during the troubles of the last 100 years. The Good Friday Agreement effectively removed the border (in practical terms). For example I have many older relatives who were happy to put aside their republican demands for a United Ireland on the basis that the status quo was peace and normality.

But the Good Friday Agreement (a key international treaty) and the UK government's December agreement with the EU all say there will be no hard border so why is this even an issue now...?

Only in the ROI if the EU demand it, the U.K. has said we won’t do it.......

I've told you a number of times now Pete but you just ignore it - the WTO that would force the UK to enact a customs border if the UK wanted to play by their rules (that which we hear about all the time in "no deal" scenarios"

 

[peteblue]

Look at the EU borders. Look at Serbia, Bosnia, Albania, Montenegro, Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia and those countries backing onto the Mediterranean. All of which are open to abuse. Now tell me why the EU ignores all of that but is generating an argument, with what will become its largest trading partner, over less than 5% of the traffic of goods, between NI and ROI. It’s a cruel joke......

 

[peteblue]

So you think an effective solution is to just ignore the issue?!?!

In any case Pete - can you not understand that the Irish border is incredibly important to the Irish people (who live both sides of it)? It's been a constant source of tension during the troubles of the last 100 years. The Good Friday Agreement effectively removed the border (in practical terms). For example I have many older relatives who were happy to put aside their republican demands for a United Ireland on the basis that the status quo was peace and normality.

But the Good Friday Agreement (a key international treaty) and the UK government's December agreement with the EU all say there will be no hard border so why is this even an issue now...?



I've told you a number of times now Pete but you just ignore it - the WTO that would force the UK to enact a customs border if the UK wanted to play by their rules (that which we hear about all the time in "no deal" scenarios"

Bertie Ahern said exactly the same, it’s noise, just ignore it.....

I can understand the importance to the people and this is why I find it so offensive that the EU are cynically stirring this up for their own advantage........

And I’ve explained that a customs border does not require fences and armed guards in this day and age, so we’ll just have to disagree......

 

[peteblue]

But the Good Friday Agreement (a key international treaty) and the UK government's December agreement with the EU all say there will be no hard border so why is this even an issue now...?

I have no idea why this is an issue now. It’s only an issue with the EU, they are the ones who have just written a known totally unacceptable border in the sea scenario. This should be a non issue but the EU are insisting on making it one....

 

[Charlie Sweet]

Bertie Ahern said exactly the same, it’s noise, just ignore it.....

I can understand the importance to the people and this is why I find it so offensive that the EU are cynically stirring this up for their own advantage........

And I’ve explained that a customs border does not require fences and armed guards in this day and age, so we’ll just have to disagree......

You ignore what exactly? That the Irish border generally is a key issue?

I must have missed your explanation of how a customs border doesn't require a border? How is it enforced?

I have no idea why this is an issue now. It’s only an issue with the EU, they are the ones who have just written a known totally unacceptable border in the sea scenario. This should be a non issue but the EU are insisting on making it one....

The draft legal text just puts into legal wording what the UK have already agreed to back in December.

Paragraph 48 reads: "The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting and supporting continued North-South and East-West cooperation across the full range of political, economic, security, societal and agricultural contexts and frameworks of cooperation, including the continued operation of the North-South implementation bodies."

Paragraph 49 states the United Kingdom is committed to "avoiding a hard border" and any future arrangements "must be compatible with these overarching requirements".

Crucially, it states if no agreement between the United Kingdom and the EU can be reached the entire UK will remain within the Internal Market and Customs Union.

It states that if no agreement can be reached: "The United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.

 

[Ruairi77]

I have no idea why this is an issue now. It’s only an issue with the EU, they are the ones who have just written a known totally unacceptable border in the sea scenario. This should be a non issue but the EU are insisting on making it one....

you voted out

 

[Ruairi77]

Bertie Ahern said exactly the same, it’s noise, just ignore it.....

oh christ.