Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[Charlie Sweet]

A quiet day today for the Irish border in advance of the fireworks tomorrow.

The EU are publishing the agreed legal draft text for the December agreement that concluded Phase 1 of the talks. This was the deal that included the provision that, in the absence of an agreed deal, the UK would commit to full alignment between the North and the South of Ireland to avoid a hard border. And within that surely there can't be any disagreement that "full alignment" means a custom union as a minimum....

There was then a later paragraph inserted on the insistence of the DUP that there would be no divergence between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK although, as far as I can understand, the EU will bat that back to the UK as an "internal issue".

Can only wonder how this will play out in public though - will the DUP threaten to bring down the Tories unless the East/West deal is tied in parallel with the North/South deal? How even is that possible though?!?

 

[Charlie Sweet]

Jesus wept.....

Boris was on the Today programme this morning and likened the challenge of avoiding a hard border in Northern Ireland to the boundaries between different boroughs of London.....he said said it was a "very relevant comparison" because money was "invisibly" taken from people travelling between Camden and Westminster when he was London mayor.

Has the man no shame? ANPR is not used as an alternative to a hard border anywhere on planet Earth but hey ho what's that matter..

First of all the UK government has already promised a customs union for Northern Ireland and the Republic come what may.

But critical to any solution is that all Irish parties agree there can be no hard border or physical infrastructure of any kind. That includes cameras. Not to mention the practicalities of 260 crossing points covering 309 miles, the so called Hard border is logistically impossible to impose in any case.

 

[peteblue]

I see Barnier has said that the EU have a responsibility to the GFA and Guy Verhofstadt declared that the European Parliament would fight to ensure that Northern Ireland remains subject to EU law after Brexit.

These guys are drunk on power........

 

[hullefc]

Jesus wept.....

Boris was on the Today programme this morning and likened the challenge of avoiding a hard border in Northern Ireland to the boundaries between different boroughs of London.....he said said it was a "very relevant comparison" because money was "invisibly" taken from people travelling between Camden and Westminster when he was London mayor.

Has the man no shame? ANPR is not used as an alternative to a hard border anywhere on planet Earth but hey ho what's that matter..

First of all the UK government has already promised a customs union for Northern Ireland and the Republic come what may.

But critical to any solution is that all Irish parties agree there can be no hard border or physical infrastructure of any kind. That includes cameras. Not to mention the practicalities of 260 crossing points covering 309 miles, the so called Hard border is logistically impossible to impose in any case.

It has finally dawned on those imbeciles like Johnson, that the whole of the UK will not be leaving the customs union or the single market or the ECJ jurisdiction. It is either special status for Northern Ireland or May reneges on an international treaty and amends the Northern Ireland Act 1989. You just couldn't make up such a stupid answer as Johnson's 'congestion charge'.

 

[Charlie Sweet]

I see Barnier has said that the EU have a responsibility to the GFA and Guy Verhofstadt declared that the European Parliament would fight to ensure that Northern Ireland remains subject to EU law after Brexit.

These guys are drunk on power........

Pete - you'll see tomorrow that the UK has already agreed to Northern Ireland's special status. Approximately half of the population will be EU citizens after Brexit (if it happens) and their rights must be fully protected as set out by the Good Friday Agreement. Exactly what part of that do you have a problem with?

I suggest that the ones actually drunk on power are those Brexit leaders who have clearly had a gin and tonic too many as they seem to want to ignore existing international treaties that prevent any sense of a hard border on Ireland.

And without a hard border on Ireland the UK has only one choice - soft Brexit or no Brexit.

 

[ToffeeTim]

Can people stop using the word "rights".

Sorry for going all Julie's Ceasar here, but you have a right to a free trial. There's a heck of a lot flows from that point, but in essence that is it.

Everything else is a privilege. We are privileged to live where we do.

 

[ToffeeTim]

Pete - you'll see tomorrow that the UK has already agreed to Northern Ireland's special status. Approximately half of the population will be EU citizens after Brexit (if it happens) and their rights must be fully protected as set out by the Good Friday Agreement. Exactly what part of that do you have a problem with?

I suggest that the ones actually drunk on power are those Brexit leaders who have clearly had a gin and tonic too many as they seem to want to ignore existing international treaties that prevent any sense of a hard border on Ireland.

And without a hard border on Ireland the UK has only one choice - soft Brexit or no Brexit.

There will be no hard border, albeit I don't quite understand the meaning people have given to the term.

Also, why have you described the bilateral 1998 Belfast Agreement as an "international treaty"? I'm confused.

 

[Ruairi77]

Here's the Irish times piece on special status for NI. The DUP won't be happy
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...xit-draft-says-1.3407842#.WpWrhNZ4U24.twitter

 

[Ruairi77]

There will be no hard border, albeit I don't quite understand the meaning people have given to the term.

Also, why have you described the bilateral 1998 Belfast Agreement as an "international treaty"? I'm confused.

it was both bi lateral and international. An agreement between two sides and two nations.

 

[Caolam]

It is absolute stupidity to think there will be no border between North and South if Britian come out of Europe entirely. I work in the south Down/south Armagh area and regularly cross the border on minor roads without even noticing it. To have a hard border were these minor roads are closed will put hours onto my site inspections and make life very difficult for border communities. Many country areas are in the hinterland of towns which are on the other side of the border. I know plenty of people who work in the south and to have maned check points will put hours unto their weekly commute.
If there is any difference in pricing of goods between the states then smuggling will become a major problem, the people of south Down and south Armagh used to thrive on smuggling.
What worries me most about Britian's cavalier attitude to a hard border is how that will be perceived by hard line nationalists, if it is believed that the greater separation of the two states is the failure of the political process then they can justify the return of the armed struggle. I honestly believed that the troubles could never return but now I am not so sure, there has been an increase in dissident republican behaviour recently. Interventions like we had today by Boris Johnston only serve to inflame a serious situation. To have a Foreign Secretary who thinks in is reasonable to compare two parts of London with Nortern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland shows a complete lack of understanding.
I really cannot see a solution which would not have a detrimental effect on the people both north and south. F we get a special deal were we stay within the Customs Union then how can the British government deny Scotlad the same deal.
Personally I think it is a mess which requires better minds than those we have working on it and a considerably longer time than we have allowed ourselves to sort out the complexities.

 

[ToffeeTim]

There are 3 protagonists in this matter.

1) UK
2) ROI
3) European Union

A customs union, border checks, and above all tariffs, are only in the interests of one of the above.

I'll let you guess which one....

 

[Ruairi77]

There are 3 protagonists in this matter.

1) UK
2) ROI
3) European Union

A customs union, border checks, and above all tariffs, are only in the interests of one of the above.

I'll let you guess which one....

UK?

everyone else is happy with things the way they are.

 

[peteblue]

It is absolute stupidity to think there will be no border between North and South if Britian come out of Europe entirely. I work in the south Down/south Armagh area and regularly cross the border on minor roads without even noticing it. To have a hard border were these minor roads are closed will put hours onto my site inspections and make life very difficult for border communities. Many country areas are in the hinterland of towns which are on the other side of the border. I know plenty of people who work in the south and to have maned check points will put hours unto their weekly commute.
If there is any difference in pricing of goods between the states then smuggling will become a major problem, the people of south Down and south Armagh used to thrive on smuggling.
What worries me most about Britian's cavalier attitude to a hard border is how that will be perceived by hard line nationalists, if it is believed that the greater separation of the two states is the failure of the political process then they can justify the return of the armed struggle. I honestly believed that the troubles could never return but now I am not so sure, there has been an increase in dissident republican behaviour recently. Interventions like we had today by Boris Johnston only serve to inflame a serious situation. To have a Foreign Secretary who thinks in is reasonable to compare two parts of London with Nortern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland shows a complete lack of understanding.
I really cannot see a solution which would not have a detrimental effect on the people both north and south. F we get a special deal were we stay within the Customs Union then how can the British government deny Scotlad the same deal.
Personally I think it is a mess which requires better minds than those we have working on it and a considerably longer time than we have allowed ourselves to sort out the complexities.

The U.K. has said it does not want and will not put in a hard border, and there is nothing that the EU or anyone else can do to insist we have one, so your journey into NI will be as per today. However if the EU and Ireland wish to have a hard border then you will have more difficulties but at least you will know who to complain to. Have you ever noticed that whenever the EU do not wish to do something it is described as being ‘impossible’. This doesn’t mean that something is actually impossible, just that they do not wish to do it......

 

[peteblue]

UK?

everyone else is happy with things the way they are.

Nice try but now read the question and guess again.......

 

[Charlie Sweet]

There will be no hard border, albeit I don't quite understand the meaning people have given to the term.

Also, why have you described the bilateral 1998 Belfast Agreement as an "international treaty"? I'm confused.

why do you insist on calling it the Belfast Agreement alongside all unionists when everyone else in the world calls it the Good Friday Agreement? genuine question.

The U.K. has said it does not want and will not put in a hard border, and there is nothing that the EU or anyone else can do to insist we have one, so your journey into NI will be as per today. However if the EU and Ireland wish to have a hard border then you will have more difficulties but at least you will know who to complain to. Have you ever noticed that whenever the EU do not wish to do something it is described as being ‘impossible’. This doesn’t mean that something is actually impossible, just that they do not wish to do it......

Pete the UK have caused this by voting for Brexit. They are changing the status quo not Ireland or the EU.

Also I believe that the WTO would force the UK to have border controls if that's the route you went down