Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[hullefc]

I have to laugh at May and the rest of the British political class calling for "the integrity" of the United Kingdom to be respected by the EU....completely overlooking the point that they argue for the continued occupation of land that was partioned and seized by threat of force and force itself.

Given that the UN are being urged to end colonialism by 2020 . That would be a good time for a border poll.

 

[davek]

to be honest Davek if they had a poll to give northern Ireland back to a united Ireland , most on the mainland would vote to do just that, its seen as a problem we can do without by most people outside the unionist community and the tory party.
They voted to stay in the EU let them have there wish.

It's the only sensible solution mate. I suspect if that happened the 62% of Scots who voted that way would want to remain in the EU too.

The referendum was a disaster that could have been avoided by asking for a majority that reached a clear conclusion: sometimes a figure of 70% in plebiscites like that are the criteria - just to avoid all this second referendum/people's referendum nonsense.

 

[davek]

Given that the UN are being urged to end colonialism by 2020 . That would be a good time for a border poll.

Maybe a bit fanciful that timeline mate!

I would hope, though, that the loosening of ties between Britain and the island of Ireland that will come out of Brexit (I'd imagine), added to the continuation of no hostilities and another generation distance from the so called "Troubles" would lead to a poll in a decade or two time on the question of Irish reunification. The partition of that island is a historical event lasting over a hundred years, not an unchanging "fact". It was at root a plantation of people, and people's minds change. Socially the two units are less and less starkly different. Of course, the poltical class in the Republic would also have to want that too.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

seriously why don't we just tell the EU to do one? We are leaving and there will be no hard border? If any Irish customs try to stop it we will just send troops over the border to dismantle any check points?

seriously what would the EU do??? It's time we called their bluff

Dear God Almighty

 

[edge]

It's the only sensible solution mate. I suspect if that happened the 62% of Scots who voted that way would want to remain in the EU too.

The referendum was a disaster that could have been avoided by asking for a majority that reached a clear conclusion: sometimes a figure of 70% in plebiscites like that are the criteria - just to avoid all this second referendum/people's referendum nonsense.

now your talking , get rid of the jocks as well.
In fairness they didn't put a figure on the winning post as they never thought people would vote out, don't forget they allowed commonwealth residence, expats that had left up to 15 years ago, Gibraltar, and Irish citizens living in the UK , who would most likely vote to keep the status quo ,all to vote so in there minds it was never going to happen.
The Tories could say we have already had a second referendum by proxy anyway as they stood on a platform of implementing Brexit in the GE and won that as well.

 

[hullefc]

Maybe a bit fanciful that timeline mate!

I would hope, though, that the loosening of ties between Britain and the island of Ireland that will come out of Brexit (I'd imagine), added to the continuation of no hostilities and another generation distance from the so called "Troubles" would lead to a poll in a decade or two time on the question of Irish reunification. The partition of that island is a historical event lasting over a hundred years, not an unchanging "fact". It was at root a plantation of people, and people's minds change. Socially the two units are less and less starkly different. Of course, the poltical class in the Republic would also have to want that too.

Border businesses and Sinn Fein have forced the Irish government to take this stance over the border. Any changes will affect Irish business and UK businesses. UK businesses benefit enormously from trade with Ireland and run trade surpluses in goods and services - the 'they need us more than we need them' scenario spouted by Rees Mogg et all - the UK exports more to Ireland than the whole of the BRICS countries put together, 5th largest trade partner, with 200 000 UK jobs, only 15% of those in NI, relying on that trade.

The Irish PM is under political pressure to make sure there is no border checks. Brexit may well be the moment that breaks Ireland's colonial past. Sooner than people think.

 

[edge]

Maybe a bit fanciful that timeline mate!

I would hope, though, that the loosening of ties between Britain and the island of Ireland that will come out of Brexit (I'd imagine), added to the continuation of no hostilities and another generation distance from the so called "Troubles" would lead to a poll in a decade or two time on the question of Irish reunification. The partition of that island is a historical event lasting over a hundred years, not an unchanging "fact". It was at root a plantation of people, and people's minds change. Socially the two units are less and less starkly different. Of course, the poltical class in the Republic would also have to want that too.

In the future as the younger less entrenched in tradition people become a majority, I think its inevitable they will want to join together in some form or another.
Might seem a pipe dream but even here in Liverpool in my life time there has been a drastic change away from religious tribalism, I was born in tenements were only about 3 none catholic families lived out of hundreds, don't think, I had any non catholic mates till we moved to Norris green, not by ban or anything other than I didn't come into contact any until that piont,
Even going to school I used to get off at Netherfield road and it would be festooned with tory election posters, while five minutes walk into Kirkdale it was all Labour, now days other than the 12th there isn't a sign of it, hopefully. northern Ireland goes the same way.

 

[Harryflashman]

In the future as the younger less entrenched in tradition people become a majority, I think its inevitable they will want to join together in some form or another.
Might seem a pipe dream but even here in Liverpool in my life time there has been a drastic change away from religious tribalism, I was born in tenements were only about 3 none catholic families lived out of hundreds, don't think, I had any non catholic mates till we moved to Norris green, not by ban or anything other than I didn't come into contact any until that piont,
Even going to school I used to get off at Netherfield road and it would be festooned with tory election posters, while five minutes walk into Kirkdale it was all Labour, now days other than the 12th there isn't a sign of it, hopefully. northern Ireland goes the same way.

I hadn’t thought about it but I think that’s an interesting analogy mate . I’m still old enough to remember people chucking stones at the lodge which has long gone and like you , not deliberately or consciously, as as kid I’m not sure for many years I had many none catholic mates so maybe your right .

Unfortunately the history specifically in the North means I think we might still be a long way away from that but let’s hope not.

 

[edge]

I hadn’t thought about it but I think that’s an interesting analogy mate . I’m still old enough to remember people chucking stones at the lodge which has long gone and like you , not deliberately or consciously, as as kid I’m not sure for many years I had many none catholic mates so maybe your right .

Unfortunately the history specifically in the North means I think we might still be a long way away from that but let’s hope not.

It will take decades, there are people on both sides who have lost people in the troubles( is that alright to call it that these days? I cant keep up) so its understandable it will be raw to them, but as the younger ones mix go to uni ect and break out of there areas were they grown up it will change.

 

[davek]

now your talking , get rid of the jocks as well.
In fairness they didn't put a figure on the winning post as they never thought people would vote out, don't forget they allowed commonwealth residence, expats that had left up to 15 years ago, Gibraltar, and Irish citizens living in the UK , who would most likely vote to keep the status quo ,all to vote so in there minds it was never going to happen.
The Tories could say we have already had a second referendum by proxy anyway as they stood on a platform of implementing Brexit in the GE and won that as well.

I think it should go ahead now (Brexit). I didn't want it, I think it'll be a disaster, but the result was the result. If there is a second referendum it will be because the country's elite has refused to take their instruction from the people. It'd be a very dangerous move.

 

[The binman chronicles]

I think it should go ahead now (Brexit). I didn't want it, I think it'll be a disaster, but the result was the result. If there is a second referendum it will be because the country's elite has refused to take their instruction from the people. It'd be a very dangerous move.

I really don't understand if we have a second referendum saying take the deal or remain, how it could be classed as refusing the instruction from the people. It is further validation from the people!

 

[gonetomorrow]

It might not be too bad.

And if it isn't, we can always grovel to the EU to let us back again in about ten years. That's assuming a referendum then results in a majority of course.

 

[edge]

I think it should go ahead now (Brexit). I didn't want it, I think it'll be a disaster, but the result was the result. If there is a second referendum it will be because the country's elite has refused to take their instruction from the people. It'd be a very dangerous move.

said this in another thread Davek, we are on the verge of a massive polarization on the political front the way this is going after Brexit hasn't been handled at all well be all sides.
As normal the powers that be will make hay with the situation for there own ends.

 

[davek]

In the future as the younger less entrenched in tradition people become a majority, I think its inevitable they will want to join together in some form or another.
Might seem a pipe dream but even here in Liverpool in my life time there has been a drastic change away from religious tribalism, I was born in tenements were only about 3 none catholic families lived out of hundreds, don't think, I had any non catholic mates till we moved to Norris green, not by ban or anything other than I didn't come into contact any until that piont,
Even going to school I used to get off at Netherfield road and it would be festooned with tory election posters, while five minutes walk into Kirkdale it was all Labour, now days other than the 12th there isn't a sign of it, hopefully. northern Ireland goes the same way.

Ha Ha. Different times then mate. When Cilla Black had that spat with Ricky Thommo in the Echo about who was more scouse she reminded him of the fact that people like him from Netherfield Road were true blue Tories (and Ricky was in the National Front too, as you know).

The difference between Liverpool and say Belfast was that the slum clearances of Scotty/Vauxhall and Netherfield/St Domingo/Breckfield by the Corpy forced Catholics and Protestants together out in places like Huyton, Croxteth, Speke and later Kirkby, Halewood and Skelm. They were pretty much all in it together on estates that had hardly any social infrastructure and so those places were glued together more by everyone going down the local Labour club or the Conny club - and they didn't give a flying one about religion by then, just looking to get customers in.

Belfast just couldn't do that. It would have been a blood bath and still would.

The hope is that people both sides of the border are rejecting the extremes: Hiberno-Catholic culture versus Ulster-Protestant. The stuff on abortion rights and holding the churches to account for abuse etc are the stuff that will make people see each other as less alien. It'll be a long drawn out process and there'll be those on each side who dont want that to happen and will threaten bringing out the gun again. Irish history is a long and bloody one but a changing one. There will be a turn of the wheel again that sweeps partition away. Sometime in the future it will be inevitable.

 

[davek]

I really don't understand if we have a second referendum saying take the deal or remain, how it could be classed as refusing the instruction from the people. It is further validation from the people!

That's a second go at the same issue. What then - leavers asking for the best of three?

It's a nonsense and even though I think it'll be a bad move to leave it'd be an even worse move to rip up a referendum result and go again. It is profoundly undemocratic.