2017/18 Idrissa Gueye

[toffeeblue9]

As mad as that is (considering Gana is our best player), I begrudgingly agree.

Yep, this is the kind of problem that you're going to get a lot of opposition to from the fans.

Everyone loves Gana, and rightly so, but if we're looking for a balance in midfield, it would seem on the face of it that the most balanced duo would be Schneiderlin and Davies at the moment

 

[TraffordBlue]

I just don't get where people get this at all. If someone can explain to me.

He gets about more than Barry, and is younger and quicker, but is nowhere near as good a footballer, even at Barry's age.

I don't think he's a terrible player for what it's worth, but comparatively speaking, to what I continue to read and hear, how he's our best player (nonsense), how he's the best DM, or as some would have you believe, Midfielder in the Prem (fantasy), he is simply nowhere near that level.

I'd love for someone to tell me what exactly it is he does that's so exceptional, and what, other than covering a lot of ground (less than Wayne Rooney in some games), it is that sets him apart from the rest. What positive influence he has on the team in the way say a Roy Keane, or Patrick Vieira, or even a Gareth Barry did.

For me, he is an energetic player, with no real charisma or influence, no attacking threat whatsoever, not a great passer, not a great dribbler, not a great tactician, not a great leader, not a great shooter, not even that great a defensive mid, as has been proven on numerous occasions, most recently Saturday.

Just seems like the trendy thing to like him, say how good he is, no questions asked.
And it seems like If enough people say it, it becomes reality.

Well, It's not my reality, and all the tackling stats in the world don't make up for the fact of actually watching him.

For a start there is a problem with the players you have mentioned here. The first 2 are 2 of the greatest defensive midfielders to grace the Premier League era, both having the obvious benefit of playing for title winning teams with vastly superior teammates. The third comparison with Gareth Barry is not fair either because Barry is a different type of midfield player to Gana, but was also a league title winner.

I don't know how you can watch Gana and not see what he brings to the team. If you're purely looking for exceptional ability on the ball, goals, crossfield passes etc then you're obviously not going to get that with him, but that's not where his strengths lie so it is pointless for the fans to expect it of him.

What he does exceptionally well is prevent opposition players from having any time on the ball. Similar to what McCarthy brought to the team in the 13-14 season. He makes interceptions, blocks, tackles, prevents opposition counter attacks, covers the defence when needed, 'runs round a lot' which is actually a positive for someone in his position even though the suggestion will probably get laughed at. These are all attributes that help the team as a whole. And obviously he is more limited on the ball than someone like Barkley but that is why each player has a different role in the team. You need players who can stop the opposition as much as you need players who can get past the opposition in an attack.

I thought he had a poor game by his standards on Saturday, as did Schneiderlin. But I also noticed the crowd in their desperation were getting agitated by backwards passing because everyone was so desperate for us to get back in the game. There were times when Schneiderlin had no realistic option but to play a backwards pass in order to keep possession and loads were going mental. Just because we're losing doesn't mean Gueye and Schneiderlin will turn in to Messi and be able to fly past players and bang in the goals. Their passing game relies on keeping hold of the ball and giving it to better players. Barkley could learn a thing or 2 about this and is why he's never kicked on as a player because he tries unrealistic things in unrealistic situations and loses possession easily.

Of the 2 i'd drop Schniederlin at the moment. Davies has to play too.

 

[Kever10]

For a start there is a problem with the players you have mentioned here. The first 2 are 2 of the greatest defensive midfielders to grace the Premier League era, both having the obvious benefit of playing for title winning teams with vastly superior teammates. The third comparison with Gareth Barry is not fair either because Barry is a different type of midfield player to Gana, but was also a league title winner.

I don't know how you can watch Gana and not see what he brings to the team. If you're purely looking for exceptional ability on the ball, goals, crossfield passes etc then you're obviously not going to get that with him, but that's not where his strengths lie so it is pointless for the fans to expect it of him.

What he does exceptionally well is prevent opposition players from having any time on the ball. Similar to what McCarthy brought to the team in the 13-14 season. He makes interceptions, blocks, tackles, prevents opposition counter attacks, covers the defence when needed, 'runs round a lot' which is actually a positive for someone in his position even though the suggestion will probably get laughed at. These are all attributes that help the team as a whole. And obviously he is more limited on the ball than someone like Barkley but that is why each player has a different role in the team. You need players who can stop the opposition as much as you need players who can get past the opposition in an attack.

I thought he had a poor game by his standards on Saturday, as did Schneiderlin. But I also noticed the crowd in their desperation were getting agitated by backwards passing because everyone was so desperate for us to get back in the game. There were times when Schneiderlin had no realistic option but to play a backwards pass in order to keep possession and loads were going mental. Just because we're losing doesn't mean Gueye and Schneiderlin will turn in to Messi and be able to fly past players and bang in the goals. Their passing game relies on keeping hold of the ball and giving it to better players. Barkley could learn a thing or 2 about this and is why he's never kicked on as a player because he tries unrealistic things in unrealistic situations and loses possession easily.

Of the 2 i'd drop Schniederlin at the moment. Davies has to play.

Yes, I've picked a few examples of top class players, but if you listen to opinions of some, who are saying he is far and away our best player, the best midfielder or DM in the league, better than Kante or other such players because his stats prove it, etc. So why is it unfair to then compare him to other great players from the past?

You say it's not fair because these players played for teams winning titles, without considering that these teams won their trophies because of said players, and if Gueye is as good as he's made out, he should be held to the same standards. If he really does stand out as much as you say he does, he should be taking games by the scruff of the neck, controlling games, having actual influence on them. But he doesn't.

I can watch him and not see what he brings, because he is a defensive midfield player, and in a team that is set up defensively, with lots of defenders, 2 DMs, defensive tactics implemented by a defensive coach who used to be a defender, we are still alarmingly terrible at defending. I can watch him and not see what he brings because he is a defensive midfielder who allows 20 odd yards of space in front of our defenders for players to run in unopposed. And these are the things he's supposedly there to prevent.

I'm not expecting him or Schneiderlin to turn into Messi, but I'm expecting them to do the minimum required for defensive midfielders, and protect the defenders. They don't need to do more, because we have an abundance of supposed creative players.

But that's what baffles me when people say he's far and away our best player. He has one role to do, hasn't done it very well, doesn't offer much more than what he is supposed to be employed to do, doesn't influence games, and then wins the stats even when he Clearly has a poor game.

Like I say, Im not saying he's awful, he's not Claus Thomsen level. But he certainly isn't Arteta level, or even Hutchison level, but people go on about him being our best player, and he really isn't.

P.S. Coincidentally, Phil Neville was often our top Opta performer. That tells you as much as you need to know about stats.

 

[nevsonlymate]

There is a bit of a conundrum here

The Schneiderlin/Gueye axis isn't needed in some games. Neither of them are what you might call a driving force in midfield.

Schneiderlin has good positional sense (usually) and is capable of playing the holding role as well as a ball-winning, box-to-box type role.

Gueye has unbelievable energy and is brilliant at pressing and winning the ball back, he brings great dynamism to our midfield but he isn't positionally great at times and this means he isn't a natural holding player, so to get the best out of him you do need someone who can sit. Since Barry left (and I don't count Besic as being an option), there's really only Schneiderlin left in the squad who can fill this role.

So, to me at the moment, it's a question of Scheiderlin and one of Davies or Gueye (or both if we're being very defensive). The combination of Davies and Gueye would be very energetic, but neither of them have what I would call great positional sense - I remember when Schneiderlin was out at the back end of last season and Gueye and Davies had to play together, it was evident that neither of them had that natural inclination to sit in and plug gaps - they both wanted to go and win the ball.

I love Gana, but it's clear how much more Davies drives us forward and is capable of seeing and executing more telling forward passes than Gueye, so on the basis that I'm not convinced he and Davies are a compatible combination, I'd opt to have Gueye on the bench at the moment, at least in the home games against sides we need to beat.

Any one think Schneiderlin could play as a centre half? we already lack pace so that wouldn't change much but as said he reads the game well and could bring the ball out like Stones does, just a thought.

 

[Azzurri]

Any one think Schneiderlin could play as a centre half? we already lack pace so that wouldn't change much but as said he reads the game well and could bring the ball out like Stones does, just a thought.

Too slim for that in my opinion. In theory Schneiderlin nipping in front of a forward and carrying the ball forward sounds great, but when crosses are getting launched into the box and Andy Carrol is trying to smash his face in, will he stand up to that? I personally don't think so.

 

[maccavennie]

..they're all decent footballers, none have to be particularly better than the other. It's a matter of finding a blend, players who compliment each other in the build of an effective team. That's what good managers do.

He's failing miserably atm eggs when it comes to finding the blend that's for sure lol

 

[Eggs]

He's failing miserably atm eggs when it comes to finding the blend that's for sure lol

..he certainly is, Matey. More of a concern is you buy players with a blend in mind, I'm not sure he's done that. Fingers crossed he has.

 

[TraffordBlue]

Yes, I've picked a few examples of top class players, but if you listen to opinions of some, who are saying he is far and away our best player, the best midfielder or DM in the league, better than Kante or other such players because his stats prove it, etc. So why is it unfair to then compare him to other great players from the past?

You say it's not fair because these players played for teams winning titles, without considering that these teams won their trophies because of said players, and if Gueye is as good as he's made out, he should be held to the same standards. If he really does stand out as much as you say he does, he should be taking games by the scruff of the neck, controlling games, having actual influence on them. But he doesn't.

I can watch him and not see what he brings, because he is a defensive midfield player, and in a team that is set up defensively, with lots of defenders, 2 DMs, defensive tactics implemented by a defensive coach who used to be a defender, we are still alarmingly terrible at defending. I can watch him and not see what he brings because he is a defensive midfielder who allows 20 odd yards of space in front of our defenders for players to run in unopposed. And these are the things he's supposedly there to prevent.

I'm not expecting him or Schneiderlin to turn into Messi, but I'm expecting them to do the minimum required for defensive midfielders, and protect the defenders. They don't need to do more, because we have an abundance of supposed creative players.

But that's what baffles me when people say he's far and away our best player. He has one role to do, hasn't done it very well, doesn't offer much more than what he is supposed to be employed to do, doesn't influence games, and then wins the stats even when he Clearly has a poor game.

Like I say, Im not saying he's awful, he's not Claus Thomsen level. But he certainly isn't Arteta level, or even Hutchison level, but people go on about him being our best player, and he really isn't.

P.S. Coincidentally, Phil Neville was often our top Opta performer. That tells you as much as you need to know about stats.

I think more often than not, he is our best player to be honest. Not footballing ability wise but in terms of how effective he is in his position. Outfield i'd say he's still been the best this season or at the minimum right up there, with Pickford being arguably our most consistent performer.

To say those teams won trophies purely because of those players you mentioned is a bit of a stretch as well. Would Keane have won the league for Man United without Schmiechel, Neville, Giggs, Scholes, van Nistelrooy? Would Vieira without Adams, Henry, Bergkamp? If you look at Kante, he was obviously exceptional when Leicester won the League but Mahrez and Vardy were also 2 of the League's stand out performers and the likes of Drinkwater, Fuchs and Kasper Schmiechel were great too. How many of our players this season have been at that level?

As far as the stats go, I would agree that they don't tell the full picture. I always think stats are only useful when provided in context. Defensive midfielders are bound to have good pass completion rates when they are in a position where they are going to receive the ball a lot and only have to make simple 5-10 yard low risk passes.

Gueye has some improving to do this season as I think he's been a bit inconsistent and in some games, been poor in possession, but I still think he outperforms his teammates regularly.

 

[Kever10]

I think more often than not, he is our best player to be honest. Not footballing ability wise but in terms of how effective he is in his position. Outfield i'd say he's still been the best this season or at the minimum right up there, with Pickford being arguably our most consistent performer.

To say those teams won trophies purely because of those players you mentioned is a bit of a stretch as well. Would Keane have won the league for Man United without Schmiechel, Neville, Giggs, Scholes, van Nistelrooy? Would Vieira without Adams, Henry, Bergkamp? If you look at Kante, he was obviously exceptional when Leicester won the League but Mahrez and Vardy were also 2 of the League's stand out performers and the likes of Drinkwater, Fuchs and Kasper Schmiechel were great too. How many of our players this season have been at that level?

As far as the stats go, I would agree that they don't tell the full picture. I always think stats are only useful when provided in context. Defensive midfielders are bound to have good pass completion rates when they are in a position where they are going to receive the ball a lot and only have to make simple 5-10 yard low risk passes.

Gueye has some improving to do this season as I think he's been a bit inconsistent and in some games, been poor in possession, but I still think he outperforms his teammates regularly.

Well, I didn't say purely because of them, but I would ask if you don't think they influenced those teams? In the case of Kante, he left and his new team did, while his former team went by the way side. These players in these teams can and do have massive impacts on teams. It's my personal view that while Gueye is a decent player, he has no such effect on our team, and is absolutely not our best player, not this year nor last. In the same way that while he was important to us, Lee Carsley was never our best player, regardless how hard he was to replace, and anyone who argues otherwise is just being difficult.

I can't think of 1 game this season when Gueye has been our best player, and when we have underperformed to the level we have, that tells its own story as to his overall influence on the team.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Any one think Schneiderlin could play as a centre half? we already lack pace so that wouldn't change much but as said he reads the game well and could bring the ball out like Stones does, just a thought.

Or we could just play Holgate there. Has the pace and game reading will come with experience.

 

[TraffordBlue]

Well, I didn't say purely because of them, but I would ask if you don't think they influenced those teams? In the case of Kante, he left and his new team did, while his former team went by the way side. These players in these teams can and do have massive impacts on teams. It's my personal view that while Gueye is a decent player, he has no such effect on our team, and is absolutely not our best player, not this year nor last. In the same way that while he was important to us, Lee Carsley was never our best player, regardless how hard he was to replace, and anyone who argues otherwise is just being difficult.

I can't think of 1 game this season when Gueye has been our best player, and when we have underperformed to the level we have, that tells its own story as to his overall influence on the team.

Of course they influenced those teams, I am not trying to argue that. But I think Gana influences us in the games he plays well in. Lukaku got player of the season for his 25 goals but in terms of consistency throughout the season I think Gana was our best player.

Did you miss the Hajduk Split home game then? He was everywhere that evening and scored as well.

I do think he has had a few poor and ineffective games this season and that's not been helped by the overall team performance either. But personally thought he was great against Stoke, man of the match v Split at home, and was still one of the better performers in the Spurs and Man United defeats even if he wasn't his usual self. Have a look through the match report threads for those games to see the general consensus. By number of votes: Stoke (H) 2nd, Hajduk (H) 1st, Spurs (H) 4th, Man United (A) 4th. So most of the time even in the games where he has an off day he still gets seen as one of the better players as shown with the votes in the Spurs and Man United games.

 

[Groucho]

Apparently signing a new contract

 

[Kever10]

Of course they influenced those teams, I am not trying to argue that. But I think Gana influences us in the games he plays well in. Lukaku got player of the season for his 25 goals but in terms of consistency throughout the season I think Gana was our best player.

Did you miss the Hajduk Split home game then? He was everywhere that evening and scored as well.

I do think he has had a few poor and ineffective games this season and that's not been helped by the overall team performance either. But personally thought he was great against Stoke, man of the match v Split at home, and was still one of the better performers in the Spurs and Man United defeats even if he wasn't his usual self. Have a look through the match report threads for those games to see the general consensus. By number of votes: Stoke (H) 2nd, Hajduk (H) 1st, Spurs (H) 4th, Man United (A) 4th. So most of the time even in the games where he has an off day he still gets seen as one of the better players as shown with the votes in the Spurs and Man United games.

This is part of my point though, I'm not saying he isn't decent, I'm saying the vocal majority big him up to a level that he definitely is not. His goal against Split was good, as was his overall performance, but in my opinion, its the only game where he's actually done anything of note. I also thought that was probably Schneiderlins best game so far as well, which may or may not be a coincidence.

United and Spurs though, definitely not. I thought he was anonymous in both, and again, you have picked 2 games where we where absolutely overrun for large parts of those games and cut open at will. He's a defensive mid but did nothing of the sort.

Last season, he started well, then we went on a terrible run of form, he was in africa for our best performance of the season, then we tailed off again near the end of the season. It's not like he inspired us to a barnstorming season, we were bang average for most of it. Not saying that was all his fault, but this fairytale that he was imperious all season and made us tick just really wasn't the case. He got his reputation early on and it just stuck regardless how he performed, and so it continues to be.

Which brings me to these votes. It's a symptom of the inflated reputation he has, that most people will tell you he played well regardless, because it's the trendy thing to do. "Gueye is/was our best player", Is like the Everton version of "Did you see that ludicrous display last night?". It somehow proves to other people that you apparently know what you're talking about without actually having to think for yourself and form your own opinion.

For what it's worth, I believe Tom Davies is our best, most effective midfield player. But like my opinion on Gueye, I'm sure lots will disagree.

 

[TraffordBlue]

This is part of my point though, I'm not saying he isn't decent, I'm saying the vocal majority big him up to a level that he definitely is not. His goal against Split was good, as was his overall performance, but in my opinion, its the only game where he's actually done anything of note. I also thought that was probably Schneiderlins best game so far as well, which may or may not be a coincidence.

United and Spurs though, definitely not. I thought he was anonymous in both, and again, you have picked 2 games where we where absolutely overrun for large parts of those games and cut open at will. He's a defensive mid but did nothing of the sort.

Last season, he started well, then we went on a terrible run of form, he was in africa for our best performance of the season, then we tailed off again near the end of the season. It's not like he inspired us to a barnstorming season, we were bang average for most of it. Not saying that was all his fault, but this fairytale that he was imperious all season and made us tick just really wasn't the case. He got his reputation early on and it just stuck regardless how he performed, and so it continues to be.

Which brings me to these votes. It's a symptom of the inflated reputation he has, that most people will tell you he played well regardless, because it's the trendy thing to do. "Gueye is/was our best player", Is like the Everton version of "Did you see that ludicrous display last night?". It somehow proves to other people that you apparently know what you're talking about without actually having to think for yourself and form your own opinion.

For what it's worth, I believe Tom Davies is our best, most effective midfield player. But like my opinion on Gueye, I'm sure lots will disagree.

Some fair points there, agree with parts of it. It's funny you mention about it being the trendy thing to do as it's not usually a position where people pick out someone to go over the top about. In my experience, I often think players like Mirallas get that because he is capable of the odd good goal.

But regarding my own opinion on Gana, maybe some people do act in the way you have mentioned but certainly not me. I just genuinely think he gives a lot to the team when in form and I value the running and energy he provides for the team. But then I rate McCarthy when fit for a very similar reason and I know most of this forum don't think he's very good. For me, every team needs a few players who will add that physical edge, get stuck in and put their body in the way. I use Barkley as an opposite example because he obviously has a lot of talent on the ball, far more than Gana or McCarthy, but I think he also lets himself down with his lack of effort and fight in games.

With Davies, he has to be starting in my opinion. He has that same energy as Gana but also gets us moving forward better and has a more creative side.

 

[Groucho]

With Davies, he has to be starting in my opinion. He has that same energy as Gana but also gets us moving forward better and has a more creative side.

Currently our best midfielder