Current Affairs How old were you when you grew up and stopped voting Labour?

[zzr45]

As said, it's churlish not to recognise an upturn in Labours performance. The LP were dead and buried when Corbyn took over. The disastrous Maybot election for the Tories was brought about by the comparison with Corbyns performance. His self assured performance threw into stark relief how woeful May is AND how bankrupt the Tories are beyond their Brexit obsession. It was that pressure from Corbyns politics and how it was resonating with the electorate when given a fair hearing that saw the Tory lead crumble. He closed right down on their lead, and subsequently we've seen minor leads for both major parties in the opinion polls. THAT's the reality.

May would still be a weak leader if the contest was with a broom. She has absolutely no connection with the people and her ability to control a party has been well documented. As a couple of commentators pointed out at the time, Corbyns overexhubrance with the result totally ignored the fact that he’d been unable to beat someone who will go down as one of the worst PMs in the countries history, against a party whose Election Manifesto was essentially a blank piece of paper with ‘TBA’ printed on it. This was despite a Labour Manifesto which essentially promised the Earth.

And sadly, Brexit was the issue that dominated the election, because it’s the biggest issue this country has. The ‘rise’ of Corbyn has been in part due to the disaster that was the Leave vote and the dissonance that came from that.

He plays a great underdog and can seemingly stand up for causes where he’s going against the tide. When it actually comes to the day to day things that matter though, he’s MIA.

 

[davek]

May would still be a weak leader if the contest was with a broom. She has absolutely no connection with the people and her ability to control a party has been well documented. As a couple of commentators pointed out at the time, Corbyns overexhubrance with the result totally ignored the fact that he’d been unable to beat someone who will go down as one of the worst PMs in the countries history, against a party whose Election Manifesto was essentially a blank piece of paper with ‘TBA’ printed on it. This was despite a Labour Manifesto which essentially promised the Earth.

And sadly, Brexit was the issue that dominated the election, because it’s the biggest issue this country has. The ‘rise’ of Corbyn has been in part due to the disaster that was the Leave vote and the dissonance that came from that.

He plays a great underdog and can seemingly stand up for causes where he’s going against the tide. When it actually comes to the day to day things that matter though, he’s MIA.

Massive Tory lead
Labour Party riven with splits
The whole of the MSM against Corbyn and his allies

...comes within a whisker of forming a minority government....and you think that was poor. The political commentariat disagree with you. They thought rightly that it was a massive achievement from a party leader who led his apparently dead and buried organisation to gains and holds with majorities that were thumping ones that will take some beating.

But to you and others "it was nothing".

Ok.

 

[zzr45]

Massive Tory lead
Labour Party riven with splits
The whole of the MSM against Corbyn and his allies

...comes within a whisker of forming a minority government....and you think that was poor. The political commentariat disagree with you. They thought rightly that it was a massive achievement from a party leader who led his apparently dead and buried organisation to gains and holds with majorities that were thumping ones that will take some beating.

But to you and others "it was nothing".

Ok.

Because against what was a leader with no bleedin' clue whatsoever, a party that had just thrown the countries long term well being into jeopardy which did little to nothing to get people to vote for them, Corbyn still didn't get the job done. He was nowhere nearer forming a minority government than you or I, no matter what his braying rants post election claimed. Against a party that had actually remembered you have to campaign during an election, would he have had the same result?

The MSM (which is a horrible phrase that's been appropriated from the tin-foil brigade) excluding the usual suspects of the DM etc. rightfully praised Corbyn on the way he ran his campaign. They questioned the policies put forward, because they were too good to be true and often lacked detail. (IRC there was a late addition that from last Sept no-one would have paid tuition fees, but no idea where the money would come from.)

At face value, it was impressive. Still didn't win though.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Massive Tory lead
Labour Party riven with splits
The whole of the MSM against Corbyn and his allies

...comes within a whisker of forming a minority government....and you think that was poor. The political commentariat disagree with you. They thought rightly that it was a massive achievement from a party leader who led his apparently dead and buried organisation to gains and holds with majorities that were thumping ones that will take some beating.

But to you and others "it was nothing".

Ok.

Hoping this emboldens the PM and when she goes walking in those Welsh hills, calls another snap election.

 

[tsubaki]

May would still be a weak leader if the contest was with a broom. She has absolutely no connection with the people and her ability to control a party has been well documented. As a couple of commentators pointed out at the time, Corbyns overexhubrance with the result totally ignored the fact that he’d been unable to beat someone who will go down as one of the worst PMs in the countries history, against a party whose Election Manifesto was essentially a blank piece of paper with ‘TBA’ printed on it. This was despite a Labour Manifesto which essentially promised the Earth.

And sadly, Brexit was the issue that dominated the election, because it’s the biggest issue this country has. The ‘rise’ of Corbyn has been in part due to the disaster that was the Leave vote and the dissonance that came from that.

He plays a great underdog and can seemingly stand up for causes where he’s going against the tide. When it actually comes to the day to day things that matter though, he’s MIA.

May didn't go into that election as a weak leader; we were told she was a "bloody difficult woman" and there were the usual comparisons with Thatcher and Churchill that the media like to go in for. It was the election that exposed what she was like, and a large part - probably the majority - of the credit goes to Corbyn for that. It wasn't the media who highlighted the fact that May was useless (even though even a casual look at her tenure at the Home Office might have suggested it), nor the PLP, nor even the Tories.

The election campaign that he ran, with almost zero support from his own party (indeed the most helpful thing they did is shut up for three months) and even less from the media, was one of the greatest of modern times. It wasn't perfect, but its difficult to think of any equivalent campaign that could have even come close to doing what he did given all the disadvantages that he was landed with. If he had won no-one would argue that it was the greatest election victory of all time, though of course ironically if he had won then the Woodcocks and Umunnas of this world would have vastly more power and influence than they do now - yet more evidence that when it comes down to it they have the political nous of tiny bits of space-rock.

As for the Labour manifesto - it wasn't great, but it was vastly superior to the Tory one and it had far more evidence backing it up.

 

[zzr45]

May didn't go into that election as a weak leader; we were told she was a "bloody difficult woman" and there were the usual comparisons with Thatcher and Churchill that the media like to go in for. It was the election that exposed what she was like, and a large part - probably the majority - of the credit goes to Corbyn for that. It wasn't the media who highlighted the fact that May was useless (even though even a casual look at her tenure at the Home Office might have suggested it), nor the PLP, nor even the Tories.

The election campaign that he ran, with almost zero support from his own party (indeed the most helpful thing they did is shut up for three months) and even less from the media, was one of the greatest of modern times. It wasn't perfect, but its difficult to think of any equivalent campaign that could have even come close to doing what he did given all the disadvantages that he was landed with. If he had won no-one would argue that it was the greatest election victory of all time, though of course ironically if he had won then the Woodcocks and Umunnas of this world would have vastly more power and influence than they do now - yet more evidence that when it comes down to it they have the political nous of tiny bits of space-rock.

As for the Labour manifesto - it wasn't great, but it was vastly superior to the Tory one and it had far more evidence backing it up.

Yeah the comparisons with Thatcher etc were completely cringeworthy. There had been nothing in her preceding months as PM that suggested she’d be anything more than a makeweight to get through the Brexit nightmare before an actually electable leader was found. She got ideas way above her station and got found out.

Again, as someone closer to the Labour Party than I you are far better to comment on its internal squabbles. There’s no doubting that it will go down as a great campaign, albeit one that fell at the final hurdle.

Totally agree that in terms of Manifestos Labour did far better. The Tory Manifesto can be replicated by drawing a question mark on any nearby surface.

The reality remains unchanged though - Labour lost, we’re still heading off a cliff and we have a government blundering it’s way through its term without anything approaching a opposition that holds it to account. One could say at present the actual opposition resides on the Tory backbenches rather than across the divide. Until the cult of Corbyn is discarded I think it’s holding British politics back. You may disagree.

 

[tsubaki]

The reality remains unchanged though - Labour lost, we’re still heading off a cliff and we have a government blundering it’s way through its term without anything approaching a opposition that holds it to account. One could say at present the actual opposition resides on the Tory backbenches rather than across the divide. Until the cult of Corbyn is discarded I think it’s holding British politics back. You may disagree.

Of all the criticisms of Corbyn I think this one is the least valid (and it has a lot of competition) - he is by some distance the most likely senior politician to challenge the Government (any Government) over a wide variety of issues, and since he has been leader there have been more than a few Government defeats (there have been as many Commons defeats for the Government 2015-2018 as occured under all of Cameron's watch 2010-2016, and three more than Major had between 1990-1997). Also they have been much more significant defeats than usual - the one on the EU Withdrawal Bill especially.

TBH I think most of the criticism of Corbyn is that he doesn't sign up so quickly to the "mood" of the Commons, he will question the Government and consensus in ways that make it uncomfortable. He actually does hold the Government - but more importantly political orthodoxy - to account and they really do not like it.

 

[peteblue]

Massive Tory lead
Labour Party riven with splits
The whole of the MSM against Corbyn and his allies

...comes within a whisker of forming a minority government....and you think that was poor. The political commentariat disagree with you. They thought rightly that it was a massive achievement from a party leader who led his apparently dead and buried organisation to gains and holds with majorities that were thumping ones that will take some beating.

But to you and others "it was nothing".

Ok.

If the election had carried on for another week or two I think Corbyn would have won tbh.....

 

[davek]

If the election had carried on for another week or two I think Corbyn would have won tbh.....

The momentum (no pun intended) was with Labour. Their manifesto was attractive and the Tories policy on the triple lock was losing them the election.

 

[roydo]

The momentum (no pun intended) was with Labour. Their manifesto was attractive and the Tories policy on the triple lock was losing them the election.

My lad voted Corbyn, note, not Labour, but Corbyn. If that makes sense. Asked him why, and he said he was the only politician who asked for his vote, so to speak.

It wasnt a particular policy, or a hatred of Tories, just that he asked him. Pretty sure loads of not that arsed millenials did similar. His campaign was superb, it has to be said.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The momentum (no pun intended) was with Labour. Their manifesto was attractive and the Tories policy on the triple lock was losing them the election.

So what's changed? We've had 9 months since the election, and had they continued that trajectory they'd be comfortably ahead in the polls, yet they're not. It's hard to believe people are more convinced about May's talents now than before.

 

[davek]

My lad voted Corbyn, note, not Labour, but Corbyn. If that makes sense. Asked him why, and he said he was the only politician who asked for his vote, so to speak.

It wasnt a particular policy, or a hatred of Tories, just that he asked him. Pretty sure loads of not that arsed millenials did similar. His campaign was superb, it has to be said.

He motivated especially those at college and universities to get out and vote - a group written off by the clever pollsters.

 

[davek]

So what's changed? We've had 9 months since the election, and had they continued that trajectory they'd be comfortably ahead in the polls, yet they're not. It's hard to believe people are more convinced about May's talents now than before.

Because the window of opportunity that the election period brings with regulations on what can and cant be done in terms of air time - and also the scrutiny of claims - allowed Corbyn to perform to levels way better than he was given credit for. There was a means to counter in detail the charges against him and his party AND a fair system of delivery of message. THAT doesn't last beyond polling day. We then went back to the massively lopsided access to communications we saw prior to that 2017 election.

Come on, time for you to give this man credit and allow for the fact that he's a class above the shower of dullards in the Tory Party leadership.

 

[roydo]

He motivated especially those at college and universities to get out and vote - a group written off by the clever pollsters.

Pretty much my lad that, so yeah. Bright, not that arsed about politics, but was engaged by Corbyn.

Thatcher did it with Essex Man, Blair did it with the swinging marginals, Trump did it with the rust belt and Joe Soap off Main Street.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Because the window of opportunity that the election period brings with regulations on what can and cant be done in terms of air time - and also the scrutiny of claims - allowed Corbyn to perform to levels way better than he was given credit for. There was a means to counter in detail the charges against him and his party AND a fair system of delivery of message. THAT doesn't last beyond polling day. We then went back to the massively lopsided access to communications we saw prior to that 2017 election.

Come on, time for you to give this man credit and allow for the fact that he's a class above the shower of dullards in the Tory Party leadership.

He seems a reasonable man, so that puts him above the shower of dullards in the cabinet, but that's a pretty low bar to be prime minister of the UK. He's largely been the invisible man over Brexit for instance, which given it's the only real issue of note in this period, and quite probably the next term as well tbh, that's a worry. I don't think anyone is ever in any doubt that he can say all the right things at Grenfell and events like that but for a party whose manifesto was so stuffed full of things to do if they were elected, he's been very quiet on actual policy stuff.

His silence on Brexit is especially troubling as it creates the distinct impression that he knows full well how divided the Labour electorate are on the matter, and so he's tried to avoid the topic at all costs for fear of annoying one group or the other. That's hard to square with his image as a man of principle willing to face any brickbats to do what's right.