Greek Financial Crisis

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I'm not being a WUM. Sometimes I think the rest of you are because you don't see what I think is bloody obvious.

I suppose it's true what Jonathan Swift said

"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him."

:p

I was thinking of you more generally as a WUM, rather than in this thread.

I can't be arsed finding it to vault you, but it's not that long ago that you admitted you posted something in one of the old transfer threads with a view to getting thread banned, which is pretty much the definitive version of Wummery. If I'd been on duty I'd have kicked you out permanently for wasting mods time, but other mods are far, far, far too lenient

Mentioning no names, but @the esk is, for example, a real gentleman and much nicer than me.

xxx
 
I was thinking of you more generally as a WUM, rather than in this thread.

I can't be arsed finding it to vault you, but it's not that long ago that you admitted you posted something in one of the old transfer threads with a view to getting thread banned, which is pretty much the definitive version of Wummery. If I'd been on duty I'd have kicked you out permanently for wasting mods time, but other mods are far, far, far too lenient

Mentioning no names, but @the esk is, for example, a real gentleman and much nicer than me.

xxx

I only ban people like @chicoazul - elephant hunting.....
 
I was thinking of you more generally as a WUM, rather than in this thread.

I can't be arsed finding it to vault you, but it's not that long ago that you admitted you posted something in one of the old transfer threads with a view to getting thread banned, which is pretty much the definitive version of Wummery. If I'd been on duty I'd have kicked you out permanently for wasting mods time, but other mods are far, far, far too lenient

Mentioning no names, but @the esk is, for example, a real gentleman and much nicer than me.

xxx
I didn't do that to get a thread ban. I just knew I would get one but lets not go there.
 
Before this crisis I was strictly pro-EU, now though I've seen it for what it truly is. Nice job, EU. I shall be voting to leave as things stand.
 
Before this crisis I was strictly pro-EU, now though I've seen it for what it truly is. Nice job, EU. I shall be voting to leave as things stand.


It does look like germany inparticular are running the show. Perhaps waiting for smallers countries to fail so they can step in. Hmmmmmm does make you think...
 
The reason why is because of the Euro.

The Eastern block people are tired of their country inflating their currency to cover up the amount the government and elite were stealing but they had no social welfare state to begin with so it wasn't a hard choice.

Germany are happy because a fixed monetary union means that neighboring countries can't undercut them in wages by devaluing plus it keeps the Euro artificially lower than what the Deutsche Mark would be helping their export economy.

The Greek people want a large state but don't want to pay either through taxation or devaluation. However they're being forced to choose by the market. Well the market (neo liberal bankers) is making the choice for them since the EU is a technocracy and wouldn't dare give the people that choice. They might do something stupid and phone up Putin for help.

Czech doesn't have the Euro, it has the Koruna :) My in-laws are Czech and I'm involved in the Czech community here in London, and what you say doesn't sound all that familiar, but I can't speak on behalf of all Czechs, or indeed the other Visegrad countries.
 
Well you're back pedalling now aren't you ?

You started off saying they stopped going "years ago"


You've conveniently swerved mentioning the figures I gave you for 2014 and the recent quote in the Independent

Then you went on to say you got your info from your parents who've holidayed in Crete



and then you end up talking about info from your wife's relatives who also have links to Krit.

While I would agree with you that there's no love lost between the Greeks and the Germans and there is almost bound to be a knock on effect from recent events, it's a world apart from saying Germans don't holiday there, so you'll have to forgive me for thinking you're not desperately well informed

You could learn something from @Adversus, even when he's being a bit of a WUM he at least puts a coherent argument together :)

Okay, Woolly, I have been severely taken to task and I accept your criticisms.:blush: Can I ask why you strenuously argue for Greece?
 
The Greeks would be mad to accept this latest German attempt to control their country. Merkel made it clear from the moment she said, 'the only currency is trust'.

That's rich coming from a person that has flouted the budgetary deficit rules of the EU on 5 occasions (because Germany 'needed' to, because 'cuts would be painful'), allows France to flout the rules (as long as it does as it is told) and allows other 'flexibility , Italy, when it wants something e.g Juncker elected.

The clear intention of Merkel since Syriza was elected was to 'crunch them' (Varoufakis) politically. As Varoufakis says, " blank refusal to engage in economic arguments. Point blank. … You put forward an argument that you’ve really worked on – to make sure it’s logically coherent – and you’re just faced with blank stares. It is as if you haven’t spoken". And these European finance ministers are supposed to be the economic 'brains of Europe'. They know the game 'German European economic wants is what rules Europe' and to get their way they will allow 'flexibility' and 'grants' to keep the others quiet and toe the line.

That is what the Euro was designed for. To allow Germany to sell its manufactured goods in Europe without the 'costly and inefficient' currency exchange. The Euro did away with countries devaluing to make their goods cheaper against others, in particular the way France would devalue the Franc to compete with German goods. Use the collective EU budget to increase grants to countries, to boost economic activity so their economies would grow and hey could afford German goods. A win win for Germany. With everyone in Europe paying for Germany industry to benefit. A major consideration of introducing the Euro was to help European industry, an in particular German industry, to compete with the Japanese and US in world markets.

The more that joined the Euro the merrier German industry and financial institutes became. Even if some countries joining like Greece should not have been allowed to. The 2008 crash brought a few chickens home to roost and Germany started to question why they should 'help' other countries. Many in Germany demanded that unless they toe the line don't give them money. “The crisis emerged over many years, through founding errors in the euro. For example, Greece should not have been admitted into the euro area,” she (Merkel) said in 2013. Staying inside the Euro will devastate Greece and will not lead to growth despite the 'promise' of 35 billion Euros for Small and Medium sized businesses.

The mantra was set after 2008. 'If you can't 'survive' in this new era then we will lend you money but we will be there, with German technocrats, German government bank, KfW 'the dumbest bank in the world', to look over your shoulder and make sure you carry through with 'austerity' measures. The Italians, Portugese, Irish and Spanish all agreed and allowed outside interference to tell them what to do. But Syriza was elected not to impose 'austerity' - 1930s slump policies - and no outside interference - KfW or IMF - in making Greek economic and social decisions.

From the moment the Greek people made the democratic choice and elected Syriza - backed by an overwhelming referendum majority - the knives were out to get rid of a troublesome movement. Either force them to leave the Euro - no longer Germany's problem or install unelected technocrats to impose 1930s slumps policies - a coup d'etat. "[But] Schäuble was consistent throughout. His view was “I’m not discussing the programme – this was accepted by the previous government and we can’t possibly allow an election to change anything. Because we have elections all the time, there are 19 of us, if every time there was an election and something changed, the contracts between us wouldn’t mean anything. So at that point I had to get up and say “Well perhaps we should simply not hold elections anymore for indebted countries”, and there was no answer. The only interpretation I can give [of their view] is “Yes, that would be a good idea, but it would be difficult to do. So you either sign on the dotted line or you are out.” A coup d'eat.

And even if the Greek parliament votes to accept these undemocratic demands there is no guarantee that they will get the 82 billion bail out anyway. After the vote it is a starting point 'to talks about the bail out money'. Tsipras has decided to force through parliament, measures that will split the country, lead to mass sackings with unemployment soaring and labour reforms that would be so draconian it would make Thatcher blush. And would never be allowed in any other European country. Demand will decrease in Greece that will lead to even further closures and unemployment going up, means less demand with further increases in unemployment and so on, just like the 1920s/1930s - Greece is already being viewed as in a worse sate than the US was in the 1930s. And just like the 1920s and 1930s when the UK insisted on keeping the gold standard to devastating effects to sections of the British economy. The Euro is acting in the same way to devastating effects to parts of Europe.

The Greek people have hard choices to make. To remain in the Euro or to go on a different path. There is no shortage of money in the world and the Greeks could borrow from Russia and China, with far far less stringent measures attached.
 
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