Greek Financial Crisis

[Toffeelover]

Well Wooly a lot of questions. Last time I was in Greece was 2010. I know from my parents who holidayed in Crete about their attitude. So not all make believe and look at the post by Edge. Now I am not entirely clueless but cannot see what illegal immigrants have to do with this.

BTW I do not tend to do repeat visits to countries for hols but go to different places each time.

 

[marty mcfly]

The only thing I can think is that there's been an agreement on debt relief which can't be announced now for fear of both upsetting the German people and for the German's losing faith plus they want to see the deal enacted.

 

[edge]

B'stards.....because of the new deal, my offer of £40 for Rhodes has been kicked back and they now want £45........some tricky negotiations to take place here like............

They will back down you will get it for £35

 

[Woolly Blue]

They will once their pensions and their deposits start getting a haircut. At that point they may as well return to the Drachma.

No mate, you really don't understand that there will be huge pain if they stay in the Eurozone, but even more pain if they exit.

Tsipras is no fool, he knows the score on the Euro, he just hoped that the Oxi vote would give him more bargaining power when it actually made no difference and the delay in coming up with a fudge, has probably made things worse for Greece. He was hoping to be able to take more back to Athens on debt reduction or extension than he actually got, and he almost certainly knows that that'll cost him politically in the short term, but he was doing things for the right reasons.

How will it end ? Nobody really knows. It may well end up in an exit in three or four years time, but there's a lot of hot air being expunged about Greek politics by people who are transferring their own political affiliations ( left or right ) to a situation which is very different to what people are used to in the UK

 

[The Equaliser]

It's sad reading these anti-European rants from the British. You'd think that the countries in the Euro had been forced kicking and screaming into joining it, whereas the fact is that there is a queue waiting to get in. The EU isn't going away and hopefully neither is the Euro. Better get used to it.

 

[Woolly Blue]

Well woolly a lot of questions. Last time I was in Greece was 2010. I know from my parents who holidayed in Crete about their attitude. So not all make believe and look at the post by Edge. Now I am not entirely clueless but cannot see what illegal immigrants have to do with this.

BTW I do not tend to do repeat visits to countries for hols but go to different places each time.

So, basically, you're really just spouting off on the internet on something you know very little about it ?
Nothing wrong with that, I do it all the time. The trick is, to know and acknowledge that you know very little and react accordingly.

As for immigrants, it's a huge problem over there, and something they could easily do without given all the other problems they have there.

 

[Woolly Blue]

The only thing I can think is that there's been an agreement on debt relief which can't be announced now for fear of both upsetting the German people and for the German's losing faith plus they want to see the deal enacted.

Probably true this.

I'd presume there's an agreement in principle on extending the underlying debt so far into the future that inflation and ( hopefully ) growth will make it much less relevant in 10 to 15 years time.

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Probably true this.

I'd presume there's an agreement in principle on extending the underlying debt so far into the future that inflation and ( hopefully ) growth will make it much less relevant in 10 to 15 years time.

Thats about all they can do (wish for)

 

[peteblue]

It's sad reading these anti-European rants from the British. You'd think that the countries in the Euro had been forced kicking and screaming into joining it, whereas the fact is that there is a queue waiting to get in. The EU isn't going away and hopefully neither is the Euro. Better get used to it.

Yeah, but unlike the Irish and the other no mark countries we do not need to be in it........

 

[marty mcfly]

No mate, you really don't understand that there will be huge pain if they stay in the Eurozone, but even more pain if they exit.

Tsipras is no fool, he knows the score on the Euro, he just hoped that the Oxi vote would give him more bargaining power when it actually made no difference and the delay in coming up with a fudge, has probably made things worse for Greece. He was hoping to be able to take more back to Athens on debt reduction or extension than he actually got, and he almost certainly knows that that'll cost him politically in the short term, but he was doing things for the right reasons.

How will it end ? Nobody really knows. It may well end up in an exit in three or four years time, but there's a lot of hot air being expunged about Greek politics by people who are transferring their own political affiliations ( left or right ) to a situation which is very different to what people are used to in the UK

I understand perfectly. The problem is without debt relief there won't be an end to that pain.

Now I was just watching Newsnight and the CEO of the German stock exchange was talking of the possibility of tax transfer (debt relief) but that will have to go to the electorate in return for more rules i.e. a greater loss of national democracy.

That's obviously now their plan and probably has been from the beginning. If that happens it will work but it won't be a democratic EU but rather a technocratic United States of Europe.

The problem is that will have to pass the electorate of not Greece but Germany and I suspect the German people aren't going to be too happy seeing their taxes sent to other countries but then again when has democracy stood in the way when it comes to Europe. It's at that point people will see the true technocratic face of the EU and not something which is simply the Greater German Empire.

Reading between the lines of the two people talking the guy from Syriza basically was saying this isn't the democratic Europe people voted for and he's right. Even the guy from Syriza said this was playing perfectly into Golden Dawn's hands.

 

[Toffeelover]

So, basically, you're really just spouting off on the internet on something you know very little about it ?
Nothing wrong with that, I do it all the time. The trick is, to know and acknowledge that you know very little and react accordingly.

As for immigrants, it's a huge problem over there, and something they could easily do without given all the other problems they have there.

Actually Woolly I do have info but it relates to Crete. My wife's sister has an In=law relative who owns an upmarket resort in Crete. This was popular with Germans. However since all this business began they (Germans) have cancelled their bookings to go elsewhere. She is now experiencing difficulties in getting bookings. As I said though this relates to Crete so perhaps a bit out of context but I was not just spouting off.

 

[marty mcfly]

Probably true this.

I'd presume there's an agreement in principle on extending the underlying debt so far into the future that inflation and ( hopefully ) growth will make it much less relevant in 10 to 15 years time.

It's not enough. They're in a depression so it needs stimulus.

Without either investment or devaluation and printing money simply removing the debt won't solve Greece's problems. It needs the EU to invest in their economy.

 

[Woolly Blue]

Actually Woolly I do have info but it relates to Crete. My wife's sister has an In=law relative who owns an upmarket resort in Crete. This was popular with Germans. However since all this business began they (Germans) have cancelled their bookings to go elsewhere. She is now experiencing difficulties in getting bookings. As I said though this relates to Crete so perhaps a bit out of context but I was not just spouting off.

Well you're back pedalling now aren't you ?

You started off saying they stopped going "years ago"

The Germans stopped going to Greece for holidays years ago.

You've conveniently swerved mentioning the figures I gave you for 2014 and the recent quote in the Independent

Then you went on to say you got your info from your parents who've holidayed in Crete

Well woolly a lot of questions. Last time I was in Greece was 2010. I know from my parents who holidayed in Crete about their attitude. So not all make believe and look at the post by Edge. Now I am not entirely clueless but cannot see what illegal immigrants have to do with this.

BTW I do not tend to do repeat visits to countries for hols but go to different places each time.

and then you end up talking about info from your wife's relatives who also have links to Krit.

While I would agree with you that there's no love lost between the Greeks and the Germans and there is almost bound to be a knock on effect from recent events, it's a world apart from saying Germans don't holiday there, so you'll have to forgive me for thinking you're not desperately well informed

You could learn something from @Adversus, even when he's being a bit of a WUM he at least puts a coherent argument together

 

[marty mcfly]

Well you're back pedalling now aren't you ?

You started off saying they stopped going "years ago"


You've conveniently swerved mentioning the figures I gave you for 2014 and the recent quote in the Independent

Then you went on to say you got your info from your parents who've holidayed in Crete



and then you end up talking about info from your wife's relatives who also have links to Krit.

While I would agree with you that there's no love lost between the Greeks and the Germans and there is almost bound to be a knock on effect from recent events, it's a world apart from saying Germans don't holiday there, so you'll have to forgive me for thinking you're not desperately well informed

You could learn something from @Adversus, even when he's being a bit of a WUM he at least puts a coherent argument together

I'm not being a WUM. Sometimes I think the rest of you are because you don't see what I think is bloody obvious.

I suppose it's true what Jonathan Swift said

"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him."

 

[Woolly Blue]

It needs the EU to invest in their economy.

They do mate, from memory, it's at the rate of something like 3 or 4% of GDP.

Tsipras will also try to sell the fact that, theoretically at least, about 25 Billion of extra funds will be used to partially negate the recessionary effects of the agreed terms.

The real worry is that more of the money that the relatively rich Greeks have, will leave the country, as will the better educated Greeks. Reverting to the Drachma and devaluing would give a short term stimulus, but wouldn't make much difference to either of those. I won't lie, I don't know that there is a proper answer, I think it's just a case of what is the least worse option.