Greek Financial Crisis

[Bruce Wayne]

Are you suggesting Syriza have done the Greeks a disservice?

I think they are doing and will do, yes. I suppose only time will tell but I don't think this is going to be a pleasant time for the Greeks.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Utter nonsense. You think the majority of Greeks dont understand this was a poison chalice taken up by Syriza after the PASOK/centre right regimes had forced them down the road of immiseration? Go and re-check the referendum result from Sunday for your answer.

Lets be honest here Dave, you're so complimentary towards the intellect of the Greek people because they broadly concur with the course of action you support. I'm sure if they thought differently to you they'd be sheep that are blindly led by Murdoch or someone of that nature. It's fine to have beliefs but it's also good to accept that there may be other sides to the coin.

I'm well aware of the referendum results, but I'm also aware that the Greek economy is not in a position to sustain itself financially, and after the way they've behaved towards finance that was already incredibly generous, I'd be surprised if even the Russians touched them with a barge pole. Where will the principles of Syriza get them? Who exactly is going to finance their ideas if/when they push the Troika away?

 

[Walken]

I think they are doing and will do, yes. I suppose only time will tell but I don't think this is going to be a pleasant time for the Greeks.

they won't be given a chance anyway, even if they turned the country around the media would have the majority believe they have failed, such is the fervent driving force against anything even approaching left center, never mind left wing, I doubt the vast majority can even name the party of the previous greek goverment, but they can all name this one, such has been the mudslinging from the british media

 

[dholliday]

So let me get this straight:

EU proposed €9bn of cuts in return for more loans so Tsipras asked the people if this was ok: the people (60% of them) said no. He then said this "no" vote would give them a position of greater influence to bargain a better deal.

Now Tsipras has made public this 'better deal': €13bn of cuts, €4bn more than the EU suggested, and yes these cuts will adversely affect normal people's pensions and tax payments.

What do the Greek people make of this, I wonder?

Politicians in breaking promises shock etc

But this goes beyond breaking promises. All hail democracy indeed.

 

[Tramps_mate]

So let me get this straight:

EU proposed €9bn of cuts in return for more loans so Tsipras asked the people if this was ok: the people (60% of them) said no. He then said this "no" vote would give them a position of greater influence to bargain a better deal.

Now Tsipras has made public this 'better deal': €13bn of cuts, €4bn more than the EU suggested, and yes these cuts will adversely affect normal people's pensions and tax payments.

What do the Greek people make of this, I wonder?

Politicians in breaking promises shock etc

But this goes beyond breaking promises. All hail democracy indeed.

Only 13? Pffft, trifle..

 

[Bruce Wayne]

they won't be given a chance anyway, even if they turned the country around the media would have the majority believe they have failed, such is the fervent driving force against anything even approaching left center, never mind left wing, I doubt the vast majority can even name the party of the previous greek goverment, but they can all name this one, such has been the mudslinging from the british media

I'm not sure the media are that powerful, especially those from another country. I suspect the only victim here are the Greek people for being suckered in by promises that were always far too delusional to ever be kept.

I mean lets face it here, Syriza could quite easily follow through with their promises if either a) they had the money within the country to do so, or b) could find someone to lend them the money to fulfill their election manifesto.

The reality is that they have neither, and their only strategy appears to be to try and tell the people that are lending them money to stuff the conditions attached to those loans (that Greece did actually agree to), but please continue to give us lots of money anyway.

That doesn't seem particularly realistic or sensible to me. If the Syriza anti-austerity plan was so watertight, you'd imagine there would be plenty of lenders willing to fund their plans, but that doesn't appear to be the case. You can continue blaming the media or the Troika or whoever if you want, but I suspect the real culprit here are the folks in the Greek cabinet.

 

[orly]

So let me get this straight:

EU proposed €9bn of cuts in return for more loans so Tsipras asked the people if this was ok: the people (60% of them) said no. He then said this "no" vote would give them a position of greater influence to bargain a better deal.

Now Tsipras has made public this 'better deal': €13bn of cuts, €4bn more than the EU suggested, and yes these cuts will adversely affect normal people's pensions and tax payments.

What do the Greek people make of this, I wonder?

Politicians in breaking promises shock etc

But this goes beyond breaking promises. All hail democracy indeed.

Have to say, I do wonder what has caused him to do this. Whether I agree with their original stance or not, to make such a violent swing in approach less than a week later is incredible.

 

[orly]

I'm not sure the media are that powerful, especially those from another country. I suspect the only victim here are the Greek people for being suckered in by promises that were always far too delusional to ever be kept.

I mean lets face it here, Syriza could quite easily follow through with their promises if either a) they had the money within the country to do so, or b) could find someone to lend them the money to fulfill their election manifesto.

The reality is that they have neither, and their only strategy appears to be to try and tell the people that are lending them money to stuff the conditions attached to those loans (that Greece did actually agree to), but please continue to give us lots of money anyway.

That doesn't seem particularly realistic or sensible to me. If the Syriza anti-austerity plan was so watertight, you'd imagine there would be plenty of lenders willing to fund their plans, but that doesn't appear to be the case. You can continue blaming the media or the Troika or whoever if you want, but I suspect the real culprit here are the folks in the Greek cabinet.

I was wondering about this. Perhaps they were banking on China and Russia being on sounder financial footing so they could use them as a potential out to pressure the West - of course, the opposite has happened.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I was wondering about this. Perhaps they were banking on China and Russia being on sounder financial footing so they could use them as a potential out to pressure the West - of course, the opposite has happened.

Indeed, there are governments out there that have a more left-leaning approach to life, and China have certainly shown a willingness to invest heavily overseas, yet they haven't touched Greece with a bargepole. I suspect that the Chinese are in many ways even more business like than the Troika on these matters, and will only invest if they get something back in return (ie raw materials), and with Greece not being too attractive in those terms they aren't willing to throw money away for ideological ends.

You sense that it's going to be a very difficult few years for the people of Greece, even if they flop out of the Euro and re-use their own currency, they will still need credit in the short/medium term to cover their costs until they can hope to re-compete again, and it's hard to see just who will extend that credit to them.

 

[orly]

Indeed, there are governments out there that have a more left-leaning approach to life, and China have certainly shown a willingness to invest heavily overseas, yet they haven't touched Greece with a bargepole. I suspect that the Chinese are in many ways even more business like than the Troika on these matters, and will only invest if they get something back in return (ie raw materials), and with Greece not being too attractive in those terms they aren't willing to throw money away for ideological ends.

You sense that it's going to be a very difficult few years for the people of Greece, even if they flop out of the Euro and re-use their own currency, they will still need credit in the short/medium term to cover their costs until they can hope to re-compete again, and it's hard to see just who will extend that credit to them.

The other problem with China is it an economy of very much smoke and mirrors; great building projects with low occupancy, cities with no one in them, and ironically a street-level trading culture that is capitalism in its truest form.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The other problem with China is it an economy of very much smoke and mirrors; great building projects with low occupancy, cities with no one in them, and ironically a street-level trading culture that is capitalism in its truest form.

Indeed. I was speaking with some senior Chinese healthcare people earlier this week, and they're quite happy to borrow and plunder from any system in the world, whether that's Bupa or the NHS. They don't really have any ideological boundaries in that regard.

 

[Walken]

I'm not sure the media are that powerful, especially those from another country. I suspect the only victim here are the Greek people for being suckered in by promises that were always far too delusional to ever be kept.

I mean lets face it here, Syriza could quite easily follow through with their promises if either a) they had the money within the country to do so, or b) could find someone to lend them the money to fulfill their election manifesto.

The reality is that they have neither, and their only strategy appears to be to try and tell the people that are lending them money to stuff the conditions attached to those loans (that Greece did actually agree to), but please continue to give us lots of money anyway.

That doesn't seem particularly realistic or sensible to me. If the Syriza anti-austerity plan was so watertight, you'd imagine there would be plenty of lenders willing to fund their plans, but that doesn't appear to be the case. You can continue blaming the media or the Troika or whoever if you want, but I suspect the real culprit here are the folks in the Greek cabinet.

I don't have much faith in Syriza, I'd like to be proved wrong, because I admire the Greek people for standing up to what is being done to them by cynical self interested politicians, that may have led them to voting in another of the same group time will tell. But at least unlike our own public they weren't fear mongered into it by a too powerful media, and to suggest they aren't powerful is the really delusional statement, otherwise campaigns would be run on policies

 

[orly]

Indeed. I was speaking with some senior Chinese healthcare people earlier this week, and they're quite happy to borrow and plunder from any system in the world, whether that's Bupa or the NHS. They don't really have any ideological boundaries in that regard.

And we are bundling up and handing it over to them as part of Healthcare UK - short term financial gain.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I don't have much faith in Syriza, I'd like to be proved wrong, because I admire the Greek people for standing up to what is being done to them by cynical self interested politicians, that may have led them to voting in another of the same group time will tell. But at least unlike our own public they weren't fear mongered into it by a too powerful media, and to suggest they aren't powerful is the really delusional statement, otherwise campaigns would be run on policies

I don't doubt the domestic media has an influence domestically, but I doubt the Daily Mail has much influence on Greek politics. I mean how many Brits read the NY Times or Washington Post? How many watch Al Jazeera rather than Sky? I suspect the numbers are very low.

 

[Walken]

I don't doubt the domestic media has an influence domestically, but I doubt the Daily Mail has much influence on Greek politics. I mean how many Brits read the NY Times or Washington Post? How many watch Al Jazeera rather than Sky? I suspect the numbers are very low.

I don't disagree, but that wasn't the point I was making, and the media from the rest of europe in the and america have been singing from the same sheets.