Current Affairs George Floyd and Minneapolis Unrest

[catcherintherye]

I agree they clearly need to improve things, but the answer is not to make all police feel like they are the enemy and hated, that will only fuel further division.

Police forces should receive further investment, I believe the salary police officers receive in the USA should be increased along with recruitment standards to encourage the right people are in these jobs. Defunding the police as some have suggested is not the solution, imo.

This is the problem though, you have any frank discussion on conduct and it falls back to people's feelings. You can't let people's feelings get in the way of making tough decisions. They are going to be viewed as the enemy all the time their members keep shooting or murdering black people. There needs to be culture change from top to bottom and they need to get on board with it. Those officers who can't or won't need to be removed.

 

[Amw79]

for the first part - its because they have a gun; they can't get in a fracas with someone because of the real risk it will be taken off them and used

This is a key point which everyone needs to fully absorb when thinking about police interactions in the US. Every single encounter is a potentially lethal one, as there’s a firearm in play, whether it’s a call to a robbery or a speeding offence.

Cops will always be very conscious of the fact that if they get overpowered and lose control of their gun, they could likely be killed.

It makes for scared cops, primed to over-react, and when combined with poor training, even “good cops” will get it wrong and make poor decisions.

This isn’t a comment on the Atlanta incident, just a general observation.

 

[PhilM]

Well the training needs changing then doesn't it haha. What use is a criminal if you're effectively shooting to kill.

You don’t shoot to kill: you shoot the largest body mass, which is the chest, as it is the safest thing to do in the wider context.

 

[Nymzee]

You don’t shoot to kill: you shoot the largest body mass, which is the chest, as it is the safest thing to do in the wider context.

Yeh I'm sure shooting the centre of the back of a man running away is the safest thing to do.

 

[davek]

No he was sleeping in a car in a Wendy's and resisted arrest and lost his life while also being drunk apparently.

Disgraceful.

 

[PhilM]

Yeh I'm sure shooting the centre of the back of a man running away is the safest thing to do.

I mean in the wider context of having to use a firearm and the training that it's based on rather than the use of a firearm in a particular incident.

It's not a western or a film where people freely shoot limbs etc. with ease. Hitting a target, especially if it's moving, isn't particularly easy and more so at range.

What if you miss said leg or arm and the bullet ricochets? This could injure an innocent (in the sense of not being involved) parties who are within range.

What if you miss said leg or arm and they are able to discharge a weapon or a firearm in their posession? This could cause serious injury or death to those nearby.

In reality, if you use a firearm it is because you want to stop them so you hit the largest mass and the stopping power it brings; it also does not mean instant death.

 

[tsubaki]

This is the problem though, you have any frank discussion on conduct and it falls back to people's feelings. You can't let people's feelings get in the way of making tough decisions. They are going to be viewed as the enemy all the time their members keep shooting or murdering black people. There needs to be culture change from top to bottom and they need to get on board with it. Those officers who can't or won't need to be removed.

TBF there needs to be a lot more than just culture change.

There needs to be an independent (of the police and of politics) means of investigating deaths, of all kinds - our coroners system is not perfect but its light years ahead of anything they have (which is crazy given that its medieval in origin). Once they have that, it needs to be able to deal with and be seen to deal with people who kill others without justification.

There needs to be fewer but much larger agencies, probably one per state rather than the myriad of forces that currently exist. Bigger forces usually mean better training, more professional cops, more cops per person (which is important as it means less of them are on single patrol and so less likely to go for the gun first), more capability to deal with major crimes and public order properly and more actual accountability rather than the farce that is voting for a sheriff. Having a national register of cops as well would make it more difficult for officers to mess up in one force and make it somewhere else (which is something the UK isn't immune to as seen with the PC that pushed Tomlinson).

Finally there needs to be a real look at what their police are actually for. Over here, we have the principles established by Peel that, by and large, our police have always operated by. Cops and especially police staff are, even in London, usually recruited from the same area they are going to cover and have an interest in it being done properly. Senior cops will invariably try to build and promote community cohesion and cooperation (even if idiot politicians do their best to undermine this), with the result that for the vast majority of the time there are no no-go zones anywhere in the country.

 

[catcherintherye]

Yeh I'm sure shooting the centre of the back of a man running away is the safest thing to do.

Essentially they won't be changing anyone's perception while they keep doing this.

The sad part is, for every incident like this, you could have 1000 police officers working their socks off, going over and above, and it wouldn't even compensate. Those officers who are professional, who work hard, make good decisions have got to start challenging the officers like this who don't just partake in the act but also allow it to continue.

 

[JimmyJeffers]

Being asleep in his car and later resisting arrest.

You'd just get moved along in the uk.

You’d get arrested if you were steaming and charged with being in charge of a motor vehicle whilst under the influence. If you ran away the police would put up a chase but be safe in the knowledge they can trace exactly who you are from the car reg. To shoot someone for that is totally insane.

 

[riddick]

Try shooting somebody in the leg when they're running. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it's a difficult skill and firearms training always teaches centre of mass.

Police officers are granted the extraordinary ability to use force. They are meant to be trained at a MUCH higher standard than the normal person because of such.

I don't disagree with you per se on the "its much easier to hit center mass", just that center mass also has just about every vital organ a person needs except one.

 

[JimmyJeffers]

Disgraceful.

100%. No wonder that you’d crap yourself and run after seeing constant videos of police killing a black guy for the last week. Dunno how you can justify taking someone’s life in these circumstances.

Weird place the states. Fight for small government but back authorities being able to shoot others for minor misdemeanours.

 

[peteblue]

The Policeman will be dealt with and hopefully changes will be made to attitudes and practice.

Though I still cannot get my head around why someone burnt down Wendy’s. I wonder how many people will now lose their jobs and the social effects upon their families as a result...madness

 

[Brennan]

100%. No wonder that you’d crap yourself and run after seeing constant videos of police killing a black guy for the last week. Dunno how you can justify taking someone’s life in these circumstances.

Weird place the states. Fight for small government but back authorities being able to shoot others for minor misdemeanours.

He robbed a taser off a policeman and then fired it at him. Hardly a minor misdemeanour.

He also showed absolutely zero concern for the lives of others when he drove a car drunk.

 

[PhilM]

Police officers are granted the extraordinary ability to use force. They are meant to be trained at a MUCH higher standard than the normal person because of such.

I don't disagree with you per se on the "its much easier to hit center mass", just that center mass also has just about every vital organ a person needs except one.

Refer back to my post regarding why people in the police and military are trained to hit the centre mass: it is the safest option for all involved in the wider context.

If you want all officers accurately hitting slim and moving limbs, then they need thousands of hours of range work on an annual basis: special forces esque.*

This is the result of people watching films and games and thinking it is a realistic possibility whereas in reality it's not... far from it.

*even then it's centre mass or head within a certain range.

 

[Disgruntledgoat]

Refer back to my post regarding why people in the police and military are trained to hit the centre mass: it is the safest option for all involved in the wider context.

If you want all officers accurately hitting slim and moving limbs, then they need thousands of hours of range work on an annual basis: special forces esque.*

This is the result of people watching films and games and thinking it is a realistic possibility whereas in reality it's not... far from it.

*even then it's centre mass or head within a certain range.

Especially with a hand gun and a moving target.