Current Affairs General US politics (ie, not POTUS related)

[Martin Alvito]

cop unions

That, and the fact that we had a federally funded program to place soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan with police departments. Because, you know, operating in hostile territory where insurgents might try to kill you with an IED at any moment is ideal training for domestic police work.

We resorted to this because private employers know that a subset of that population are ticking time bombs who have been stripped of all value for the lives of others, and refused to hire the lot as a result.

So now we have a lot of police officers who act like members of a hostile occupying army, which is the exact opposite of what every bit of research tells us good police work (ie: building relationships in the community) is.

 

[PeregrineT]

The issue with policing in the US is most definitely not with former military.

 

[Martin Alvito]

The issue with policing in the US is most definitely not with former military.

I disagree. The problem isn't the military. It's the nature of the most recent conflicts, and what that does to people. That generates a survival mindset which then becomes a self-perpetuating problem in terms of community relations.

The problem was already there in a lot of places, but doing things the way we did exacerbated it IMO. Police today are  very different than they were when I was a kid, and that's living in the safest of places. The explosion in the quantity of firearms owned by Americans doesn't help the situation. 

 

[PeregrineT]

I disagree. The problem isn't the military. It's the nature of the most recent conflicts, and what that does to people. That generates a survival mindset which then becomes a self-perpetuating problem in terms of community relations.

The problem was already there in a lot of places, but doing things the way we did exacerbated it IMO. Police today are  very different than they were when I was a kid, and that's living in the safest of places. The explosion in the quantity of firearms owned by Americans doesn't help the situation. 

"The explosion in the quantity of firearms owned by Americans doesn't help the situation. " Um....... huh?

And the police today have nothing to do with the military, but for some reason its a thing for you and you wont let that go. I know a lot of ex-military, almost all very normal adjusted people working normal lives, who I wish were cops. And Im not sure I know more than a few cops that arent sociopaths. And anyone whos spent some time in those circles talks about the same. Stop making a fake problem because you weirdly dont want to face the actual issue is police unions. The issue with policing is most definitely not with former military.

 

[Martin Alvito]

"The explosion in the quantity of firearms owned by Americans doesn't help the situation. " Um....... huh?

And the police today have nothing to do with the military, but for some reason its a thing for you and you wont let that go. I know a lot of ex-military, almost all very normal adjusted people working normal lives, who I wish were cops. And Im not sure I know more than a few cops that arent sociopaths. And anyone whos spent some time in those circles talks about the same. Stop making a fake problem because you weirdly dont want to face the actual issue is police unions. The issue with policing is most definitely not with former military.

Again, I disagree and I think the research backs me up on this one. Most former servicemembers do fine when they get out. A minority do not. That minority tends to be larger after a conflict against an insurgency, due to the continual nature of the stress.

There are lots of problems with policing. I'm identifying one of them, which IMO contributes to the result. The totality of the problem works like this - even in safe communities they behave like an occupying army today, because a decent fraction of them were trained to think that way and it's hard to unlearn lethal force training. It's also hard to blame them, in that statistically everyone they encounter is in possession of a firearm and the situation can escalate to being lethal at any moment as a result.

Solving the police unions issue would help, but it won't fully resolve the problem because it isn't entirely causal. We also have to get rid of the guns, and change the culture inside police departments to one of partnership with the community rather than oppression.

 

[verreauxi]

 

[PeregrineT]

Again, I disagree and I think the research backs me up on this one. Most former servicemembers do fine when they get out. A minority do not. That minority tends to be larger after a conflict against an insurgency, due to the continual nature of the stress.

There are lots of problems with policing. I'm identifying one of them, which IMO contributes to the result. The totality of the problem works like this - even in safe communities they behave like an occupying army today, because a decent fraction of them were trained to think that way and it's hard to unlearn lethal force training. It's also hard to blame them, in that statistically everyone they encounter is in possession of a firearm and the situation can escalate to being lethal at any moment as a result.

Solving the police unions issue would help, but it won't fully resolve the problem because it isn't entirely causal. We also have to get rid of the guns, and change the culture inside police departments to one of partnership with the community rather than oppression.

What research?

 

[Ruairi77]

That, and the fact that we had a federally funded program to place soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan with police departments. Because, you know, operating in hostile territory where insurgents might try to kill you with an IED at any moment is ideal training for domestic police work.

We resorted to this because private employers know that a subset of that population are ticking time bombs who have been stripped of all value for the lives of others, and refused to hire the lot as a result.

So now we have a lot of police officers who act like members of a hostile occupying army, which is the exact opposite of what every bit of research tells us good police work (ie: building relationships in the community) is.

right, there's lots of ex military in the police and the training is inadequate, and there are way too many guns in circulation,
but the reason cops don't get fired when they do something terrible is because of the strength of their unions.

 

[Martin Alvito]

What research?

There is ample research out there on the relative effects of insurgency combat stresses as opposed to other types of conflicts, and how community-based policing produces far superior results. The refusal by employers to hire veterans after the Vietnam War is well-documented and, IIRC, eventually led to veterans becoming a protected class. That same refusal by employers starting around 2005-2006 with respect to hiring Iraq and Afghanistan veterans is equally well documented, hence the federal programs to place them.

The increase in gun ownership correlating with the rise in deaths by police violence is pretty evident if you look at the graphs. The best study that establishes the latter was published in the Lancet last year, and the authors found that over half of such deaths go unreported. It's also hard to explain the U.S. having three times its expected share of deaths resulting from police violence (as predicted by population share) any other way.

So I feel pretty comfortable with my positions on this one.

 

[Martin Alvito]

right, there's lots of ex military in the police and the training is inadequate, and there are way too many guns in circulation,
but the reason cops don't get fired when they do something terrible is because of the strength of their unions.

Sure, but if we want to prevent the "something terrible" we have to go after  all of the causes. It isn't just police unions. It's not enough to punish after the fact. Deterrence is good, but it doesn't prevent all crimes or armed conflicts.

 

[PeregrineT]

There is ample research out there on the relative effects of insurgency combat stresses as opposed to other types of conflicts, and how community-based policing produces far superior results. The refusal by employers to hire veterans after the Vietnam War is well-documented and, IIRC, eventually led to veterans becoming a protected class. That same refusal by employers starting around 2005-2006 with respect to hiring Iraq and Afghanistan veterans is equally well documented, hence the federal programs to place them.

The increase in gun ownership correlating with the rise in deaths by police violence is pretty evident if you look at the graphs. The best study that establishes the latter was published in the Lancet last year, and the authors found that over half of such deaths go unreported. It's also hard to explain the U.S. having three times its expected share of deaths resulting from police violence (as predicted by population share) any other way.

So I feel pretty comfortable with my positions on this one.

There is not. What research? Your comfortableness with a position experts disagree with is the issue.

And for the record the number of households owning guns has dropped for decades. Your research isnt particularly strong.

 

[Ruairi77]

Sure, but if we want to prevent the "something terrible" we have to go after  all of the causes. It isn't just police unions. It's not enough to punish after the fact. Deterrence is good, but it doesn't prevent all crimes or armed conflicts.

100% agree.
When it comes to police reform
I also think there should be a clear separation of duties and forces.
We don't need armed cops in schools
We don't need armed cops supervising road works (maybe that's just a Mass thing)
We don't need armed cops responding to parking issues or overturned garbage cans or even drunks asleep on the street.
There is clearly room for an unarmed civilian force that can handle half of the duties.

As for the rest, maybe a two year associates degree in policing instead of 7 weeks training.
Make body cams mandatory in every force.
Ban military equipment filtering down to police units.
and take a ton of power off the unions.

Thats a good start.

 

[Martin Alvito]

There is not. What research? Your comfortableness with a position experts disagree with is the issue.

And for the record the number of households owning guns has dropped for decades. Your research isnt particularly strong.

The general consensus among experts frequently turns out to be wrong. In the limit, it is  always wrong. The whole point of getting an education is to have the ability to come to independent conclusions and sort through which conflicting opinions among experts are closer to "correct", and which are not.

If you do original research, which I have done, the entire point of the operation is to point out how previous experts got it wrong, and why, and then support the position with empirical evidence.

Your attempts to bully me into accepting your position through an argument from authority do not faze me as a consequence.

As for your comment on gun ownership, sure, the share of households owning at least one is more or less sideways over the last few decades (+/- 40%), but the number of guns is, as stated, over one per man, woman and child in this country. Statistically speaking, the presumption has to be that every citizen a police officer deals with is armed.

Police deaths have gone down as both gun ownership and concealed carry numbers have gone way up. I don't think it's hard to see why that's the case - because deaths by police violence are also way up. The implication is that "shoot first and ask questions later" makes them safer, and me less safe.

 

[Martin Alvito]

100% agree.
When it comes to police reform
I also think there should be a clear separation of duties and forces.
We don't need armed cops in schools
We don't need armed cops supervising road works (maybe that's just a Mass thing)
We don't need armed cops responding to parking issues or overturned garbage cans or even drunks asleep on the street.
There is clearly room for an unarmed civilian force that can handle half of the duties.

As for the rest, maybe a two year associates degree in policing instead of 7 weeks training.
Make body cams mandatory in every force.
Ban military equipment filtering down to police units.
and take a ton of power off the unions.

Thats a good start.

Yes, that is a list of good reforms. If we disarm the populace, we can have nice things like police with non-lethal weapons instead of guns.

Don't have the armed police at road projects here. Not sure about elsewhere.

 

[Ruairi77]

Yes, that is a list of good reforms. If we disarm the populace, we can have nice things like police with non-lethal weapons instead of guns.

Don't have the armed police at road projects here. Not sure about elsewhere.

Yea, it's an absolute con job here.
It's called 'detail' and every construction job public or private needs detail if they interfere with the public space in any way.
So all the senior cops who want cushy gigs to see them through to retirement sit in their cop cars staring out at a bunch of lads filling pot holes.
There has been efforts to end this but the best that was reached was that private citizens can be hired to do detail but they must be paid the same as what the cops would have been paid (think lots of overtime). So everyone just hires the cops.
It's a racket.