Current Affairs General US politics (ie, not POTUS related)

[Chewbacca]

And my point wasn’t 100% accurate. Probably only 95% accurate.

 

[carolinablue232]

Honestly, sometimes you just have to laugh at the absurdity.

 

[Prevenger17]

At some point along the way someone built that wealth though didn’t they? And the last few years alone there’s over 1 million NEW millionaires in the US who are building their own wealth. Thinking you have to be rich to get rich is a hindering fallacy for me and just another excuse to say, “I can’t do it because of someone else or something else.” Have a good idea, work hard, make good choices, etc and it can be done. It will also take time. Sure, it’s hard but there’s not a trick to the game. Not much for excuses on that front, me. I’ve seen it happen.

And before you go there, yes the mega rich should pay more, loopholes should be closed, etc. Also not advocating for a “trickle down” approach. That wasn’t your point though.

I think that's fair enough. But there is still a huge section of US society that doesn't have any sort of foundation or basis to achieve wealth. Hard work is obvs a huge factor, but so is growing up in a stable home, having access to some sort of decent education and resources and having at least some money. There are exceptions, but working your way up from extreme poverty is incredibly difficult and v few manage to do it

 

[Chewbacca]

John Steinbeck once said that socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

He was right. People have bought this myth for years.

 

[carolinablue232]

I think that's fair enough. But there is still a huge section of US society that doesn't have any sort of foundation or basis to achieve wealth. Hard work is obvs a huge factor, but so is growing up in a stable home, having access to some sort of decent education and resources and having at least some money. There are exceptions, but working your way up from extreme poverty is incredibly difficult and v few manage to do it

Of course there are no extremes, different circumstances, and different levels of difficulty based on those circumstances. My point is, even if you don’t have that foundation, you still can achieve success. You’re not going to build generational wealth overnight, but in the US, you have opportunity to do so.

One of my best friends is Latino, grew up in a small town singled parent household since his dad left and was an alcoholic, went to college, and within 10 years of graduating had both his and his wife’s student loans paid off even though they had over 200k worth combined upon graduating. Now they own a home worth upwards of 600k (thanks Zillow) and he makes about 200k/year as an IT consultant. He had the drive to want to better himself and his situation, and he did it without complaining about student loans, his tough home life, or anything else. He made a choice and wasn’t limited by some mythical barrier. I know this is anecdotal, but if someone in that situation who is smart but by no means brilliant can change their life, then I think other people can too. I just get really annoyed when people say things like, “I wasn’t born rich so I don’t have a chance here.” That’s BS.

 

[LinekersLegs]

The Cuomo scandals keep piling up

 

[Prevenger17]

Of course there are no extremes, different circumstances, and different levels of difficulty based on those circumstances. My point is, even if you don’t have that foundation, you still can achieve success. You’re not going to build generational wealth overnight, but in the US, you have opportunity to do so.

One of my best friends is Latino, grew up in a small town singled parent household since his dad left and was an alcoholic, went to college, and within 10 years of graduating had both his and his wife’s student loans paid off even though they had over 200k worth combined upon graduating. Now they own a home worth upwards of 600k (thanks Zillow) and he makes about 200k/year as an IT consultant. He had the drive to want to better himself and his situation, and he did it without complaining about student loans, his tough home life, or anything else. He made a choice and wasn’t limited by some mythical barrier. I know this is anecdotal, but if someone in that situation who is smart but by no means brilliant can change their life, then I think other people can too. I just get really annoyed when people say things like, “I wasn’t born rich so I don’t have a chance here.” That’s BS.

But as you say, that's anecdotal. For every one of your friends, there's a hundred swallowed by poverty with very few routes out of it. This expectation that everyone will pull themselves up by the bootstraps eventually and work their way out of poverty just isn't realistic when you look at the last few decades and the existing depths of poverty in the US.

The vast majority of people in the US who are born poor, die poor. It's a fact. You can shrug your shoulders and say they should work harder, or hope that a sudden surge of entrepeneurship and hard work will suddenly improve their lot, but statistically speaking, it is a deranged hope.

 

[carolinablue232]

But as you say, that's anecdotal. For every one of your friends, there's a hundred swallowed by poverty with very few routes out of it. This expectation that everyone will pull themselves up by the bootstraps eventually and work their way out of poverty just isn't realistic when you look at the last few decades and the existing depths of poverty in the US.

The vast majority of people in the US who are born poor, die poor. It's a fact. You can shrug your shoulders and say they should work harder, or hope that a sudden surge of entrepeneurship and hard work will suddenly improve their lot, but statistically speaking, it is a deranged hope.

Do you think limiting beliefs play a factor or not? You’re basically saying look at the numbers of people that don’t do it. I’m saying look at the people who do and use it as a model. If you have a limiting belief that you can’t do something, that becomes your reality. We should be trying to lift impoverished people with resources and actual self belief and hope rather than saying, “Ah you’re poor, you’ll probably stay poorly.”

 

[Prevenger17]

We should be trying to lift impoverished people with resources and actual self belief and hope rather than saying, “Ah you’re poor, you’ll probably stay poorly.”

Well yeah, I would love that for poor Americans, but it's not going to happen if the last few years have told us anything. And nobody here is telling poor people they will probably stay poor, it's just that statistically they probably will.

On the other hand, they often do get directly told that their poverty is their own choice and they just have to work harder. I think it would be helpful to cut that out, don't you?

 

[JimmyJeffers]

Do you think limiting beliefs play a factor or not? You’re basically saying look at the numbers of people that don’t do it. I’m saying look at the people who do and use it as a model. If you have a limiting belief that you can’t do something, that becomes your reality. We should be trying to lift impoverished people with resources and actual self belief and hope rather than saying, “Ah you’re poor, you’ll probably stay poorly.”

It’s the way the ruling classes stay in charge, by giving the masses just enough belief that they are on the cusp. Sure there’s always anecdotal evidence of mates who had nothing making it. These are perfect stories.
How come the richest never fall down the ladder? It’s a fallacy.

 

[carolinablue232]

Well yeah, I would love that for poor Americans, but it's not going to happen if the last few years have told us anything. And nobody here is telling poor people they will probably stay poor, it's just that statistically they probably will.

On the other hand, they often do get directly told that their poverty is their own choice and they just have to work harder. I think it would be helpful to cut that out, don't you?

Sorry but that’s the messaging that’s perpetually shared and again more limiting beliefs. If you give up on changing circumstances then they won’t. It’s defeatist.

And honestly some people probably do need to work harder if they really want to change their circumstances, but yes that messaging is extremely flawed. You’re never going to get rich driving a bus for example, even if you work doubles every day. Rather again, I’d highlight the steps people took who were successful and then ask, why can’t this path be highlighted and replicated more often? What resources do we need to provide and what tools do we need to give people so they know what success actually looks like. How do we actually evolve our antiquated education system and make people want to value it more? How do we change high school drop out rates in low income areas? There are all kinds of problems that we can address to help people but at some level people also do have to want to help themselves and as hard as it is today, it’s not impossible to change your circumstances in this country or most others.

 

[carolinablue232]

It’s the way the ruling classes stay in charge, by giving the masses just enough belief that they are on the cusp. Sure there’s always anecdotal evidence of mates who had nothing making it. These are perfect stories.
How come the richest never fall down the ladder? It’s a fallacy.

Sorry, are you saying people who have money should end up poor?

And yes, there are anecdotal stories but what makes that path so impossible to replicate? Why are there so many stories of immigrants who come here with literally nothing and make it whereas our own society doesn’t think they can?

 

[Prevenger17]

Sorry but that’s the messaging that’s perpetually shared and again more limiting beliefs. If you give up on changing circumstances then they won’t. It’s defeatist.

Sorry, but it's a literal fact. Poverty is inherited just as much as wealth is, and that has been true of the world for as long as economies have existed. America have been using your approach this whole time, telling people to believe their way out of poverty. It hasn't worked.

What it hasn't tried is what the rest of the developed world has with the poorer parts of its society. Ideas like making basic healthcare affordable and accessible. Not closing poor people off from a college education, and not saddling them with hundreds of thousands in debt if they do somehow get one. Not shooting members of their community on an alarmingly regular basis. Investing in poor communities and trying to make them economic contributors. These things take an enormous amount of time and effort, but the results are there to see. The US significantly lags behind the rest of the developed world both in its rates and depths of poverty.

 

[carolinablue232]

Sorry, but it's a literal fact. Poverty is inherited just as much as wealth is, and that has been true of the world for as long as economies have existed. America have been using your approach this whole time, telling people to believe their way out of poverty. It hasn't worked.

What it hasn't tried is what the rest of the developed world has with the poorer parts of its society. Ideas like making basic healthcare affordable and accessible. Not closing poor people off from a college education, and not saddling them with hundreds of thousands in debt if they do somehow get one. Not shooting members of their community on an alarmingly regular basis. Investing in poor communities and trying to make them economic contributors. These things take an enormous amount of time and effort, but the results are there to see. The US significantly lags behind the rest of the developed world both in its rates and depths of poverty.

Obviously it takes more than just belief that you have actual opportunity. There are things you’ll have to do, choices you’ll have to make, and sacrifices involved that others won’t have to make. Yes it’s really really hard. Also yes we should be doing what we can to improve all of the bolded. Again, we should be looking to lift people and give them more tools to succeed. We agree on that.

Let’s be clear, the US has major issues, but your last statement isn’t factually true. The UK, Spain, and Italy actually have higher poverty rates. We’re close with Germany and France. There isn’t a one size fits all solution no matter what way you want to go.

 

[JimmyJeffers]

Sorry, are you saying people who have money should end up poor?

And yes, there are anecdotal stories but what makes that path so impossible to replicate? Why are there so many stories of immigrants who come here with literally nothing and make it whereas our own society doesn’t think they can?

Well according to the meritocratic philosophy, if you work hard you’d rise, therefore if you don’t you will fall. It doesn’t work like that though does it which is one of the reasons the whole shitshow collapses on itself. You end up with spoilt dumbasses like Trump and his kids making decisions based on their own interests. And this will be perpetuated.