from my cold dead hand

[TX Bill]

i got in so much trouble for saying tony martin deserved a medal for shooting and killing a 5 times burglar in this country .. its unbelievable.

what i have distaste for is every man fit or otherwise armed to the teeth walking the streets. if thats the way its going, then sooner or later its the way i will have to be due to everyone else being armed like [Poor language removed].

once upon a time it was called peer pressure, but now its called the arms industry, and some **** somewhere is getting rich of fear.

pardon me for feeling ill.

Well to be clear, I'm advocating responsible gun ownership. I'm not familiar with the Tony Martin incident so I can't comment.

But every man walking the streets armed to the teeth isn't necessarily something I want either.

I do remember something that happened years ago though, I think in Florida. There was a concealed permit law in effect but due to some sort of loophole, for one day, citizens could legally carry firearms on their person in the open, not concealed.

So naturally the gun enthusiasts took full advantage and for one day, walked around like it was the Wild West. The police couldn't arrest anyone for it. Of course the loophole closed and then the concealed permit status was the only way a person could arm themselves legally in that state.

Surprisingly, we didn't have any armed shootouts that day or any gunfights though citizens could legally carry arms.

But it's not as bad over here as you think Suits. The stories like Wisconsin and Virginia Tech will always make the headlines. People will see it and think, "What the heck is going on over there?" when in reality, it's not a fair representation of what's going on in our society on a day in and day out basis where gun ownership is concerned.

 

[SuitsBlue]

ownership isnt the issue, its use and the humanity behind that use that is.

 

[TX Bill]

ownership isnt the issue, its use and the humanity behind that use that is.

Well then I guess that goes back to how we orignally view it.

You look at it as you said as "the freedom to take another's life."

I view it as "the freedom to defend one's life, liberty, and property."

 

[SuitsBlue]

with no guns, what do you have to fear in your own home?

if the criminal isnt armed witha killing machine....

see the angle?

 

[Dylan]

This is a really interesting thread. I don't own a gun, never have and probably never will.

I did a quick bit of research and found out some interesting facts:

For the year 2000 (and these numbers are pulled from a pro-gun control site) there were 10,801 homicides and 776 unintentional fatal injuries from guns. For a total of 11,577 ( I am not including suicides in this) gun-related deaths.

From the NHTSA, in 2001 there were 42,196 auto-related deaths of which around 16,500 were a direct result of DUI's. So by that reasoning, we should have stricter alcohol controls, because drunk people kill families.

 

[Ct jr.]

You know what i am tired of arguing. When the trees take over the world in a revolution they will sort all this crap out.

 

[Dylan]

CT, arguing adds spice to life. It would be boring if we all agreed about everything.

 

[atrottel]

In that Wall Street Journal article I posted (not exactly a bastion of conservative thought) they cited statistics that said that gun crime has actually increased in Europe during the times that they've instituted various gun controls, some lax and some harsh.

Just to correct this, it was an opinion piece written by an anti-gun-control advocate, not a news article written by a journalist. And yes, most people in Europe (if they read it) would consider the WSJ a bastion of conservative thought. Conservative in your world and in ours has a violently different meaning.

You live in a city where you feel the necessity to carry an illegal gun in your car. Where women drive around with blow-up male passengers beside them (careful, chico!). Where, 20 years ago, I was told I was mad for walking from the YMCA to the nearest HoJos to look for something to eat.

That's your world and it's interesting to discuss things with you in the way that it would be interesting to discuss things with someone from any other country.

But we live in a different society. Ask people in Liverpool (to pluck a city at random) whether they would feel safer if everyone had the right to carry a gun. There are plenty of guns in the hands of criminals already, so presumably people would feel safer if they could freely own one themselves. Not living there, I would be interested to hear the current answer as well.

 

[atrottel]

So by that reasoning, we should have stricter alcohol controls, because drunk people kill families.

When I worked in Colorado, you did, Dylan. You weren't allowed to exercise your freedom to drink as much as you liked and then get into a car and drive, and if you did, and you caused an accident you had the book thrown at you. In a number of bars you were asked to hand over your car keys if you wished to continue drinking.

In many states, you are not allowed to transport alcohol in an non-locked area of the car, you are not allowed to drink in public, and you are not allowed even to have empty beer cans in the car.

In fact, in Colorado, the barman that served you had a good chance to have the book thrown at him or her, which was why there was special bar workers' insurance.

But I agree with you in the sense that alcohol is a socially acceptable drug which is not treated in the same way as other harmful substances.

 

[Rook]

There are 250? million guns in the US. Unfortately if you did make them illegal the will still be 250 million guns out there. Plus guns are one of the most reliable pieces of machinery in the world, they could last 100+ years. [If only GM and Ford made guns].

I'm not for making them illegal there's too many guns in this country that criminals would easily get one anyway. However I would like to see better tracking of guns/bullets (maybe etching in a unique no on bullets to track where they were bought, who bought them etc).

 

[McBain]

Guns? There great. The whole family should own one! Decidely unfunny in the climate, but a view Gun enthusiasts embrace. How else would protect little Johnny if he lives in the next state? Tactical strike on his assailants?

Unfortunatley wading in much to late into this debate again to be any use, but bear with me!

Both sides here are right. One side paints the picture of the U.S seemingly to be a pretty unstable place, where you could get car jacked at any minute, and people live in fear, there only protection a lead enema. I read every post here, and TX Bill is correct. Its another engrossing debate, but the two sides are unable to land a killer blow. I can not do this either, just express some views from a country where the police own the guns and rightly so. We dont think its our right to bear arms. Down here we dont think about getting shot. We think about work, and about our families, and going to barbeques. We dont think about that stuff because the chances of it happening are minescule. In any case its simple math. More guns = more bullets = more death. More cars = more accidents = more death. Same equation. Youd have to fundamentally agree here. Do you keep smoking because you might get cancer anyway?

People in the States have built their socirty around fear, and the antidote is more fear. Youve even told us this in your documentaries, and your news channels. My mates mum constantly watches the Fox News Channel. She cant understand why Bush isnt liked very much.

Reducing the amount of guns will give the bad guys the upper hand. Thats a pretty simple fact.

This is true. If the good guys give guns up, the bad guys will be running around saying 'Suckers!!' And then only the Cops and the bad guys will have guns. Say the cops decide to shoot anyone who has a gun in there posession. People who dont want to shoot anyone would get rid of there guns? Yes? People who do want to shoot people will keep there guns.

Now what youll end up with is everyone in America wanting to join the police force. End of bad guys. But then the bad guys would join the police force. Then the police would be the bad guys, and America becomes a dictatorship, if it isnt already.

Ok, so if that makes any sense, which of course it doesnt, whats the answer? Youve got a whole nation with nervously itchy trigger fingers all waiting for someone to shoot, or protect, or whatever excuse it is.

I read the experts Gun document you provided, and without any actual figures, it just tells you what you want to hear if you like guns really. And ofcourse it is titled 'Gun control reduces crime!' Not 'Gun control reduces Gun shot deaths'. So that argument falls over and dies on the way to the courthouse on the bus. It doesnt tell us anything, that gun lovers dont want to hear.

Aussies had to hand in all there guns and it didnt stop gun crime. So whats the difference if youve got guns then? In the U.S probably not much. In other countries a big difference because the repect for the law is much higher. How would you explain it any other way? And it infecting the rest of the world. Thats a big concern. http://news.scotsman.com/opinion.cfm?id=5322003

The reason for this thread was yet another American killing spree. I say yet another but TX Bill, you dont think so. I belive in the law of averages to some extent. It doesnt matter what country you live in or how big the population, anyone can get a gun somewhere and go crazy. Check out this guy. And he dared to call himself and aussie. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bryant

But you do have to admit it happens all time in the U.S. Didnt you have the campus killings, the snipers, the amish schoolhouse and the list goes on.

This is an article that I found that spells out your countries situation in black and white.

Of the Fourteen westernised countries in the world, the U.S owns seven of the worst gun massacres ever committed. Thats half. Of all the countries on the list not America, every country did something about it. Your country does nothing. Of every country not America on the list, it has never happened worse again. In America, you do nothing, and every year it gets worse. You guys need to do something. Anything.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2007/04/30/070430taco_talk_gopnik

And Im pretty sure this was written by an American who doesnt love guns quite so much.

 

[Rob]

There are 250? million guns in the US. Unfortately if you did make them illegal the will still be 250 million guns out there. Plus guns are one of the most reliable pieces of machinery in the world, they could last 100+ years. [If only GM and Ford made guns].

I'm not for making them illegal there's too many guns in this country that criminals would easily get one anyway. However I would like to see better tracking of guns/bullets (maybe etching in a unique no on bullets to track where they were bought, who bought them etc).

Yeh, I don't agree with the banning of guns, having, owning or anything like that, I think we should ban the MAKING of guns from here on in.

if it takes 300-500 years to get rid of them all, then so be it, you reap what you sow.

 

[neonleon]

the gun control issue in America is much like the war on terror and pre-emptive strikes, the death penalty and pro-life and other such US policies (or potential policies) - they're aren't the real issue, they're symptomatic of the people.

Republicans usually increase the divide between the rich and the poor, making the poor yet poorer and the rich even richer - yet poor people regularly vote for them.

strange?

No.

Its all down to the real fundamental problem. The education system combined with American culture. All that pledging alliegance and thinking America is the best in the world and beloved of all countries - coming out of school with a totally insular and myopic view of the world outside of your own borders, fed by the hollywood propaganda machine and total inability to think for yourselves

A terrible mix of feudal dynasty (I know we english can't criticise too much with a monarchy but...) and religion in politics, a huge chasm between those below the poverty line and the significantly rich, a media that is amongst the most tightly sewn up in the western world, as far as disseminating alternative political and cultural perspectives (though they would argue that is down to the market - i.e people like to tune in to listen to what they have been told is the truth previously) and more than likely the dumbest electorate in the western world bar none.

so yes, guns don't kill people they reduce crime.

We invaded iraq because Saddam WAS part of Al Qaieda and he was a brutal dictator. It WAS a humanitarian mission.

the USA is protecting the free west from lots of bad people. It DOES provide the blanket of freedom we sleep under each night (my favourite that one).

Invading iraq hasn't helped recruit more people into Al Qaieda. Nor has it turned a country where fundamentalism was brutally subdued into a religous fanatical hotbed of insurrection aimed at the west and a new hotspot of potential terrorist cells.

Jesus really was a jewish carpenter who became the son of god and preached peace (best ignore that) and his teachings helped distill part of the bible which is infallible and cannot be questioned, and is as relevant now in the age of the mobile phone, spaceship and nuclear weapon as it was in ancient judea.

Same as the US constitution cannot and should not be changed, cos evolution is a bad thing and them boys could predict events like columbine in their little crystal balls.

Same as intelligent design is a theory that hasn't been proven or disproven much like the theory of evolution.

Religion, politics, Imperialism, Capitalism and Nuclear Weapons really do go well together.

And we all sleep safer knowing america has the freehold on enlightenment.

 

[chicoazul]

I would have been well pissed off if I posted a literature masterpiece such as above and never got a response.

Therefore Im responding.

 

[monty]

I would have been well pissed off if I posted a literature masterpiece such as above and never got a response.

Therefore Im responding.

Well done Chico, whilst I don't agree with the resulting attack on the states it was still well thought out and very well presented.

The aim of this thread is basically 'guns in society and how do we control them', the only logical answer is we don't because we can't. Gun control laws that exist in the UK aren't worth a fig, they could not prevent the death of young Rhys Jones (RIP). If anyone wants a gun these days they only have to ask Mr Baddie and they virtually get a catalogue and are asked to pick a colour within your price range. I can see guns becoming even more common here because once the 'right to use reasonable force' rules come in more guns will fall into the hands of Joe Public, we will end up more like the USA rather than them like us