Current Affairs Free Speech

[Prevenger17]

it has some good questions that will make you pause for thought.

It doesn't. I'm sure I did one back in my 20s when I was a weirdo but they are basically just buzzfeed surveys for pseudo-intellectual dweebs

 

[wandyr79]

Sure, the first guy trespassed. No further indication he participated in any violence. Tho' he does seem a role-playing Rambo who chats a lot of wum (thoughtcrime). More here.

And to the second example: her mother got punched in the face! She was a victim of physical crime, not the perp. Yet her daughter dobbed her in for wrongthink (protesting against BLM):

Posting on Twitter a comical hypocrisy from a parent is not necessarily 'dobbing' on them. They highlight a public video, I am sure that the authorities don't need a kid to tell them to look at public videos to identify the culprits.

So they did not participate in the violence, they acted on their thoughts. People that were involved in any criminal activity are not being arrested because of thought but action. If the people involved just simply stood peacefully outside then there can be a good argument that they were simply thinking about those opinions. If nobody broke into the building then and stood outside peacefully then again, nobody would be arrested for thinking their opinion.

Tell me one instance of somebody getting arrested for simply thinking stuff and then we might have a direct comparison with the thought crime argument you make. If you can then I will disagree with regardless of what they were thinking.

 

[Amw79]

i linked a lot more than just twitter.

in my view, the concrete examples i've linked and mentioned, with my analysis of Trump-as-the-Goldstein-hate-figure, points to a neo-fascistic totalitarian direction for society - perhaps within a generation or two - should those utilising these methods win the so-called culture war.


We're not there now, but the threat is there.

Think this Goldstein analogy is over complicating an uncomplicated situation. Trump was, and remains an extremely divisive person.

He fosters that division deliberately, it’s his style, so the fact that he provoked strong reactions on both sides was entirely predictable.

But still, millions of Americans love the guy, I mean he’s been out of office now for 6 months, but he clearly still occupies a lot of your head space.

Personally, I like politicians to be boring and competent. Trump was neither in my view.

 

[dholliday]

I will be honest, I don't generally go into the whole 'meaning of' fictional books/films, very much. That is very much my other half's focus, so I asked her but she hasn't read 1984 recently enough to comment confidently enough, she is very much anti Trump (she is American) so I doubt she would agree 100% with your idealistic view of Trump being a poor victim

i'm not idealistic, not pro-Trump. i would've voted for Stein/Jorgensen in both elections. or Bernie/Tulsi had they got the nomination.

i just observe & analyse things.

Although, you say the left is being programmed. There is 100% programming on both sides of the political spectrum. So you could argue that 1984 is an analogy of the world as a whole not just the evil left.

solid point. Orwell didn't commit to revealing whether he intended to warn against the Soviets taking over, or whether the Brit/US-axis may develop so.

On the Anti Brexit sentiment, I honestly believe that the main reason the country voted to leave in the referendum is because of the mass brainwashing and the relentless nature of those statements. The bus, the immigration argument, the blue passports. I was angry with the pro EU advocates in that period because they very rarely and not very loudly refuted the relentless and loud claims made by Johnson, Farage and co.

The infamous Bus had an accurate figure, it was just the gross figure, not net. it should've sparked a debate about funding, instead it became a cat fight.

The right wing media is relentless in its defence of Brexit, again a style of brainwashing. You look at Fox news and some of the stuff they come out with as fact is ridiculous.

not sure Fox report on Brexit that much? got any examples of their lies?

So my take is, if I was to see the analogy of the book in your way, that you are still wrong to focus on it being about one side. It is about society in general and how both sides use brainwashing techniques to stop people from doing even the most basic research into the arguments.

if you & your partner ever read it in unison let us know what yous think. on its own it's an entertaining book, with a thrilling narrative...not a chore to read. Orwell's trademark was to have his stuff remain readable and accessible while still making deep & dense arguments.

It doesn't. I'm sure I did one back in my 20s when I was a weirdo but they are basically just buzzfeed surveys for pseudo-intellectual dweebs

are you saying you're not a weirdo now?

 

[dholliday]

Posting on Twitter a comical hypocrisy from a parent is not necessarily 'dobbing' on them. They highlight a public video, I am sure that the authorities don't need a kid to tell them to look at public videos to identify the culprits.

publicly outing on social media is very much dobbing. it's public shaming.

So they did not participate in the violence, they acted on their thoughts. People that were involved in any criminal activity are not being arrested because of thought but action. If the people involved just simply stood peacefully outside then there can be a good argument that they were simply thinking about those opinions. If nobody broke into the building then and stood outside peacefully then again, nobody would be arrested for thinking their opinion.

most didn't break into the building, they were let in by the security, or simply waltzed in.

Tell me one instance of somebody getting arrested for simply thinking stuff and then we might have a direct comparison with the thought crime argument you make. If you can then I will disagree with regardless of what they were thinking.

i said earlier we are getting warning signs, here's another one:

Police tell man to 'check his thinking' after liking Twitter post

Harry Miller was interviewed by a Humberside Police officer over the tweet

www.hulldailymail.co.uk

Think this Goldstein analogy is over complicating an uncomplicated situation. Trump was, and remains an extremely divisive person.

He fosters that division deliberately, it’s his style, so the fact that he provoked strong reactions on both sides was entirely predictable.

agree with that...he's the most successful troll ever.

Trump the man (the President) isn't Goldstein. The symbolic hate-figure of Trump (Orange Man Bad) is Goldstein.

it's the hate-aspect that is the main focus of the comparison.

spoiler alert:

Spoiler

Goldstein, if we believe O'Brien (not a given!), didn't even exist.

- it's the hate-symbolism we're comparing here.

But still, millions of Americans love the guy, I mean he’s been out of office now for 6 months, but he clearly still occupies a lot of your head space.

not my head-space, our head-space. my head-space concerns why folk are so obsessed. the Trump thread here still gets vastly more posts than Biden's thread (that microcosm again).

Personally, I like politicians to be boring and competent. Trump was neither in my view.

he showed varying degrees of competency, some incompetence deffo. some nastiness too. but also pulled some things in the right direction.

 

[wandyr79]

i'm not idealistic, not pro-Trump. i would've voted for Stein/Jorgensen in both elections. or Bernie/Tulsi had they got the nomination.

i just observe & analyse things.



solid point. Orwell didn't commit to revealing whether he intended to warn against the Soviets taking over, or whether the Brit/US-axis may develop so.


The infamous Bus had an accurate figure, it was just the gross figure, not net. it should've sparked a debate about funding, instead it became a cat fight.


not sure Fox report on Brexit that much? got any examples of their lies?


if you & your partner ever read it in unison let us know what yous think. on its own it's an entertaining book, with a thrilling narrative...not a chore to read. Orwell's trademark was to have his stuff remain readable and accessible while still making deep & dense arguments.


are you saying you're not a weirdo now?

FYI, my Fox comment was in a general right wing media brainwashing 'we have always been at war with Islam/Mexicans/Blacks/Asians/etc.'

Other than that, fair points. I definitely do not agree with most of it but I respect your right to think what you think, I won't shop you to the authorities for your thoughts

 

[dholliday]

FYI, my Fox comment was in a general right wing media brainwashing 'we have always been at war with Islam/Mexicans/Blacks/Asians/etc.'

when have they ever said something like that? any links? genuinely interested. you may be right.

Other than that, fair points. I definitely do not agree with most of it but I respect your right to think what you think, I won't shop you to the authorities for your thoughts

haha appreciated, mate!

 

[Amw79]

publicly outing on social media is very much dobbing. it's public shaming.


most didn't break into the building, they were let in by the security, or simply waltzed in.


i said earlier we are getting warning signs, here's another one:

Police tell man to 'check his thinking' after liking Twitter post

Harry Miller was interviewed by a Humberside Police officer over the tweet

www.hulldailymail.co.uk

agree with that...he's the most successful troll ever.

Trump the man (the President) isn't Goldstein. The symbolic hate-figure of Trump (Orange Man Bad) is Goldstein.

it's the hate-aspect that is the main focus of the comparison.

spoiler alert:

Spoiler

Goldstein, if we believe O'Brien (not a given!) didn't even exist.

- it's the hate-symbolism we're comparing here.



not my head-space, our head-space. my head-space concerns why folk are so obsessed. the thread here still gets vastly more posts than Biden (that microcosm again).



he showed varying degrees of competency.

Mmm. So, you seem to be uniquely unaffected by all this propaganda, and only think about Trump in terms of how he occupied others thoughts. Could it be that you’ve fallen for a different stream of propaganda?

Re Biden. The low posts in his thread I would argue, is down to most people also wanting boring politicians. Politicians should be like referees, when you don’t notice them they’re generally doing a decent job.

(Re varying degrees….)
Not the type of reference one would want for the most powerful man in the world, and I think you were being very generous.

 

[wandyr79]

when have they ever said something like that? any links? genuinely interested. you may be right.


haha appreciated, mate!

I can't be bothered to find links (sorry should be getting back to work and watching the cricket ) but you just have to watch 10 minutes of Tucker Carlson to see how much he fans the flames with outright lies or his clever way of putting things as a question that he know his viewers will only take in one way.

I watch a lot of John Oliver, Stephen Colbert, Seth Meyers and they are constantly showing clips of Fox and their rhetoric.

 

[Prevenger17]

are you saying you're not a weirdo now?

A different kind of weirdo now

 

[Tubey]

I can't be bothered to find links (sorry should be getting back to work and watching the cricket ) but you just have to watch 10 minutes of Tucker Carlson to see how much he fans the flames with outright lies or his clever way of putting things as a question that he know his viewers will only take in one way.

I watch a lot of John Oliver, Stephen Colbert, Seth Meyers and they are constantly showing clips of Fox and their rhetoric.

Two ends of the spectrum - Fox News do what the 'woke' do in reverse. Whole point is to divide through extremism.

It's fascinating to listen to TalkRadio in the UK for Fox News Lite - pretends to be 'free speech', the 'home of common sense', in reality it's a foghorn for nutjobs.

One key difference - Fox News/TalkRadio feed off the stupid things the 'woke' do, whilst the 'woke' go out of their way to find things to be offended in first. Not saying one is better than the other, I'm simply noting the methodology of how the extremes work.

 

[Tubey]

Congratulations to Maya Forstater, a victory for biological reality and common sense.

 

[tsubaki]

Two ends of the spectrum - Fox News do what the 'woke' do in reverse. Whole point is to divide through extremism.

It's fascinating to listen to TalkRadio in the UK for Fox News Lite - pretends to be 'free speech', the 'home of common sense', in reality it's a foghorn for nutjobs.

One key difference - Fox News/TalkRadio feed off the stupid things the 'woke' do, whilst the 'woke' go out of their way to find things to be offended in first. Not saying one is better than the other, I'm simply noting the methodology of how the extremes work.

An odd comparison this; media empires who have audiences of millions and almost unrivalled political influence with an imaginary coalition of fringe academics.

 

[JimmyJeffers]

Two ends of the spectrum - Fox News do what the 'woke' do in reverse. Whole point is to divide through extremism.

It's fascinating to listen to TalkRadio in the UK for Fox News Lite - pretends to be 'free speech', the 'home of common sense', in reality it's a foghorn for nutjobs.

One key difference - Fox News/TalkRadio feed off the stupid things the 'woke' do, whilst the 'woke' go out of their way to find things to be offended in first. Not saying one is better than the other, I'm simply noting the methodology of how the extremes work.

Tell me where ‘the woke’ touched you please

 

[Tubey]

An odd comparison this; media empires who have audiences of millions and almost unrivalled political influence with an imaginary coalition of fringe academics.

Didn't say they were like for like in scope.