F1 2021

[Tubey]

Strongly disagree but it’s all opinions isn’t it. In my opinion Hamilton is the best ever. He’s won races in very average cars and now he is in the best car he has basically dominated the sport for 7 years. And in those 7 years he wasn’t always in the best car either.

There really is no way of knowing.

Like for example, I strongly believe Russell is a 10x better driver than Bottas. Yet I don't think he's ever finished ahead of him in a race, might be wrong but it's probable he hasn't. I think Leclerc is far better too, Verstappen certainly is. In fact, half the field probably are.

Yet the only thing I can say with certainty is that George Russell is better than Nicolas Latifi. Nothing else. Because they are in the exact same car. Every other comparison is pure opinion based on gut feeling.

So for Hamilton, right now, I can safely say he's far better than Bottas. But I can't say if he's better than Verstappen. I can't say he's better than Schumacher, Fangio, Stirling Moss etc. but at the same I can't say he's worse. All I can go on is race wins and titles; there's no other metric to use to measure his ability.

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

All the great drivers did this. The reason they're great is because they showed their ability to be trusted in the best car.

Stick Schumacher and Senna in a Haas/Minardi/whatever their entire career and they'd have won nothing and nobody would talk about them. Throw Pierluigi Martini in the Merc Hamilton has had or the Ferrari Schumacher did and he could have been considered a "legend". Similarly, stick Fangio in a V6/V8 car and he might have looked abysmal, you just don't know.

You can't invalidate F1 achievements of one person unless you apply them to others. There's no way to compare them; all you can go on is what they've achieved. Hamilton, whether you like it or not, is an all-time F1 great, right alongside the others. Objectively so.

Schumacher won titles in an inferior car. Heck, he dragged a garbage Ferrari to the final day against Jacques Villeneuve!

Schumacher was outmatched in 1994, 1995 (Williams) and 2000 (McLaren).

 

[Wizard]

There really is no way of knowing.

Like for example, I strongly believe Russell is a 10x better driver than Bottas. Yet I don't think he's ever finished ahead of him in a race, might be wrong but it's probable he hasn't. I think Leclerc is far better too, Verstappen certainly is. In fact, half the field probably are.

Yet the only thing I can say with certainty is that George Russell is better than Nicolas Latifi. Nothing else. Because they are in the exact same car. Every other comparison is pure opinion based on gut feeling.

So for Hamilton, right now, I can safely say he's far better than Bottas. But I can't say if he's better than Verstappen. I can't say he's better than Schumacher, Fangio, Stirling Moss etc. but at the same I can't say he's worse. All I can go on is race wins and titles; there's no other metric to use to measure his ability.

Yep, and by those metrics he is the best in almost every single one.

 

[Tubey]

Schumacher won titles in an inferior car. Heck, he dragged a garbage Ferrari to the final day against Jacques Villeneuve!

Schumacher was outmatched in 1994, 1995 (Williams) and 2000 (McLaren).

Yep and you nor anyone else can say with any degree of certainty Hamilton would or wouldn't have done better worse or the same in the same car.

F1 isn't like football. You can compare technique, achievements, pace, ability, goals, assists to combine a complete evaluation of talent in football. So Matt Le Tissier was clearly a very good footballer despite winning sod all, for example.

In F1, you can't do that, because of one simple variable. The car. Its such a huge performance factor that it really does make driver comparison, especially across eras, utterly impossible.

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

In F1, you can't do that, because of one simple variable. The car. Its such a huge performance factor that it really does make driver comparison, especially across eras, utterly impossible.

I can’t think of another driver who could pull this off:

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

And, of course, this beauty!



Four seconds quicker per lap in an uncompetitive car with two of his 10 cylinders out of commission!

 

[messymascot]

I think its impossible to compare drivers from different eras. The skill sets required are totally different. Hamilton doesn't have to change gear manually which must have been physically draining but he does have to understand what loads of different buttons do for his car. Also its the luck of the draw Alonso could be a 5 time world champion but he only has 2. Vettel is a 4 time champion but that was done in a car that was dominant and he only scraped 2 of them. Hamilton is a great in my opinion because he even managed to win in a McLaren when it was uncompetitive in 09 and a Mercedes when it was uncompetitive in 13. He's had a dominant car and he would have won the title every year if his car didn't let him down in 16. Schumacher was the stand out driver of his generation and I genuinely think there is nothing to choose between him, Alonso and Hamilton. Senna was from a different era when the cars were different but in the slight cross over with Schumacher I think they were evenly matched.

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

I think its impossible to compare drivers from different eras. The skill sets required are totally different.

True, but I cannot see Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton or Verstappen pulling out a performance like Schumacher in 1996. The only drivers who maybe could are Senna and Clark. It was unworldly talent. And in the Spa Grand Prix, holding off Hill (who was in wet tyres) in a superior Williams while driving on dry/intermediates is similarly astounding.

I have seen guys with bits and pieces of Schumacher's overall skillset, but I think people often forget just how special he was due to the fact he had a dominant car for a few seasons at Ferrari. Fact is, Schumacher in a dominant car was just too boring, so they needed him in an inferior car so the rest of the field stood a chance.

 

[Wizard]

True, but I cannot see Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton or Verstappen pulling out a performance like Schumacher in 1996. The only drivers who maybe could are Senna and Clark. It was unworldly talent. And in the Spa Grand Prix, holding off Hill (who was in wet tyres) in a superior Williams while driving on dry/intermediates is similarly astounding.

I have seen guys with bits and pieces of Schumacher's overall skillset, but I think people often forget just how special he was due to the fact he had a dominant car for a few seasons at Ferrari. Fact is, Schumacher in a dominant car was just too boring, so they needed him in an inferior car so the rest of the field stood a chance.

Hamilton won a race last year with 3 tyres for the final lap. The greats do crazy stuff. I’ve never seen anyone do what Hamilton did on that lap

 

[evilwebby]

I can’t think of another driver who could pull this off:

Not gonna deny Schumacher had some absolutely brilliant drives. Although this one I personally thought was tainted a little in how he almost drove Damon off the track, frankly he was the only driver who would take things that far, and remember this is an era where drivers generally still did their utmost to avoid contact and came just a year after Senna passed.

Personally I rate Schumacher higher than Senna, although I think Senna drove in an era of outstanding talent, his career overlapping with Prost, Mansell, Piquet. The 1994-2003 era I think was one of the weakest, with only Hakkinen offering anywhere near stiff competition. Damon is a good bloke but as a racing driver he was nowhere near the level that Schumacher was producing.

Senna had awesome talent, especially his otherworldly qualifying ability, but he was nowhere near as complete a driver as Schumacher, at least by the time of his death which was his 11th season. IMO Schumacher, already by the time he joined Ferrari which was his 5th full season, he was a more complete driver - in the sense that he was able to drive the car on the limit while still having enough mental bandwidth to assess the state of the race - than Senna.

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

Hamilton won a race last year with 3 tyres for the final lap. The greats do crazy stuff. I’ve never seen anyone do what Hamilton did on that lap

One lap - try driving in the rain and holding off a stronger car in dry tyres!

 

[Wizard]

One lap - try driving in the rain and holding off a stronger car in dry tyres!

A bit like Hamilton did in 2008 at the British Grand Prix when he won on intermediates by over a minute from second place and lapped everyone up to third. Most drivers couldn't keep it on the track and some were on extreme wets.

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

A bit like Hamilton did in 2008 at the British Grand Prix when he won on intermediates by over a minute from second place and lapped everyone up to third. Most drivers couldn't keep it on the track and some were on extreme wets.

Lewis was on wet intermediates. Ferrari blundered by leaving Kimi on dry tyres, which cost him big time.

At Spa Schumacher was racing on dry weather slicks, while Damon was in wet tyres.

 

[Cork Evertonian]

I can’t think of another driver who could pull this off:

My all time favourite f1 car would have to be that 1995 benetton. I loved it as a kid and still do now.

 

[The binman chronicles]

One lap - try driving in the rain and holding off a stronger car in dry tyres!

He kept Hill behind for two laps on a track that was already starting to dry. I wouldn't class Damon as a wet weather specialist and he was probably very circumspect trying to overtake knowing Michael would have no hesitation taking him out. If his gamble paid off Schumacher would eventually fall off the road or would need to pit so why risk anything too bold?

The truth is if Michael was able to keep it on the track on slicks then it was NOT wet weather. That is not a slight on Schumacher just a reality that he can't bend physics, either there is grip enough for the tyre not to spin under acceleration and not lock under breaking - albeit with a nod that the driver can easily bin it in those conditions and a lesser driver would have. It was probably at best Intermediate weather but even then that was only for a few laps. Where Schumacher takes credit is the fact he risked to stay out and got it right which was notoriously difficult in Spa as one lap on the wrong tyre and you've lost 30+ seconds.

Lewis was on wet intermediates. Ferrari blundered by leaving Kimi on dry tyres, which cost him big time.

At Spa Schumacher was racing on dry weather slicks, while Damon was in wet tyres.

There has been loads of occasions Hamilton has decimated the field in wet weather, there is little argument that Lewis is best of his era in the rain just like Schumacher is of his. That's all Hamilton can do, unless you have a time machine to be able to see them race at the same time. Modern day Formula 1 everything has converged into narrower bands so you won't get the outliers like Clark finishing 7 minutes ahead that even up the 90's there was an element of due to the fact it was lot less scientific in approach. Things therefore seem less spectacular but GB 08, Japan 07, Turkey 20 and Germany 18 were all very memorable wet weather drives, very much in the Schumacher mould.

Most people will have Schumacher and Hamilton in their top 5 drivers ever, which one is above is personal preference, not fact that one is better than the other.