F1 2021

[JobForTheMoyes]

Very true, never saw Jim Clark race only started watching when Mansell was driving ( probably still my fav driver that red 5 will always stick in my memory) but when you listen to the older drivers they put Clark up with the very best there’s ever been that includes Schumacher and Senna.

Statistically, Clark is arguably the greatest. Some of his ratios are insane, especially at a time of extreme danger.

Jim Clark still holds the record for most races with pole, win, fastest lap, and leading every lap – 8. He also holds a record for the highest percentage of laps in the lead in a season - 71.47% in 1963 season.

Jim Clarks shares 9th overall place for most wins in Formula 1 with Niki Lauda. Both drivers have 25 victories. However, having entered only 73 races in his career, Jim Clark has a win percentage of incredible 34.25%, being surpassed by Lewis Hamilton (35.36%) in the 2020!

Jim Clark is also 3rd and 7th driver in the history of the Formula 1 with the highest percentage of wins in a season – 70% in 1963 and 60% in 1965. He also shares second place for most consecutive wins at the same Grand Prix in history (4) with many other Formula 1 greats such as Fangio, Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton.

Jim Clark is 5th best overall in regard of total pole positions – 33 career pole positions, with very notable fact that that is 45.21% of all races entered. Only better driver percentage-wise is Juan Manuel Fangio (55.77%)

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

And they got 3 wins and 9 podiums that season. How many seasons ahead was Schumacher developing this car? And of course it has nothing to do with the fact Mercedes built the strongest power unit when it switched to hybrid motors.

Schumacher was there for three seasons. I guess you know better than Ross Brawn and Toto Wolff about how absolutely key his contribution was though. Fact is, Lewis only got that drive was hesitant to continue racing.

 

[chicoazul]

It’s a filthy Tory sport loved only by Tories and oddballs with questionable personal hygiene and fashion.

 

[Baines' left foot]

No he didn't. He walked in after Schumacher and Rosberg had done all the donkey work developing the car.

I don't remember Kimi being Lewis' teammate. I do remember Heikki Kovalainen though, who was absolutely awful.

Yeah I've got no idea where I got that from tbh. My mistake.

My point was that Schumacher was always the #1 driver in the team. You can't say that for Lewis, as when Alonso and Rosberg were his teammates they were equal to him in terms of their position in the team. They were also a lot closer in talent than any of Schumacher's teammates were to him.

I'm not doubting Schumacher's influence on his team, but to say that Hamilton walked in to a ready made championship winning team is just plain wrong. I don't think you're giving Hamilton enough credit, which is a common theme.

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

Yeah I've got no idea where I got that from tbh. My mistake.

My point was that Schumacher was always the #1 driver in the team. You can't say that for Lewis, as when Alonso and Rosberg were his teammates they were equal to him in terms of their position in the team. They were also a lot closer in talent than any of Schumacher's teammates were to him.

I'm not doubting Schumacher's influence on his team, but to say that Hamilton walked in to a ready made championship winning team is just plain wrong. I don't think you're giving Hamilton enough credit, which is a common theme.

He was at McLaren, until his performances dipped and they got Button in. He ended up outperforming Hamilton over their time together.

The point is, Schumacher was a much more important part of the teams he has been in than Hamilton. Lewis has not been as good in terms of being a development driver as Schumacher, who is probably the best of all time on that score. Schumacher would be at it from dusk til dawn at Ferrari. He also suffered from the FAI moving to make it harder for him to win, which they never done to anywhere near the same degree to Mercedes.

Lewis is, of course, very fast and competent, which is why I think he is in the elite class of champions with the likes of Alonso, Vettel and Hakkinen. Of course he ranks above them in achievements, but I think they would all do a similar job in the Mercedes.

There were noises at the time that Rosberg was actually the more helpful to the people developing the car. That was probably the reason they gave him the best engineering team for that season where he beat Hamilton - they felt he deserved a title for his work.

 

[Baines' left foot]

And they got 3 wins and 9 podiums that season. How many seasons ahead was Schumacher developing this car? And of course it has nothing to do with the fact Mercedes built the strongest power unit when it switched to hybrid motors.

As far as I can see Mercedes only won one race before Hamilton arrived, which was Rosberg. Unless I'm misinterpreting your post.

 

[Baines' left foot]

He was at McLaren, until his performances dipped and they got Button in. He ended up outperforming Hamilton over their time together.

The point is, Schumacher was a much more important part of the teams he has been in than Hamilton. Lewis has not been as good in terms of being a development driver as Schumacher, who is probably the best of all time on that score. Schumacher would be at it from dusk til dawn at Ferrari. He also suffered from the FAI moving to make it harder for him to win, which they never done to anywhere near the same degree to Mercedes.

Lewis is, of course, very fast and competent, which is why I think he is in the elite class of champions with the likes of Alonso, Vettel and Hakkinen. Of course he ranks above them in achievements, but I think they would all do a similar job in the Mercedes.

There were noises at the time that Rosberg was actually the more helpful to the people developing the car. That was probably the reason they gave him the best engineering team for that season where he beat Hamilton - they felt he deserved a title for his work.

Button was a lot more experienced than Hamilton at that stage.

There's no doubt that Schumacher had a huge influence on Ferrari, but he also competed in a time where there was no limit in testing. Ferrari did and continue to receive the most financial support from the FIA, so they always had an advantage. Ferrari still receive a 'longstanding team fee' for their longevity in the sport, which I completely disagree with.

I suppose if we're talking about who is the better driver then I don't think we're going to agree. For me, Lewis has had far more competition in his career to contend with, albeit it mainy within his own team. I also have trouble lauding Schumacher so much because of the way he treated his opponents. People will point the finger at Hamilton for his crash yesterday, but Schumacher is well known for deliberately ruininig the races of his competitors to his advantage. I don't believe Hamilton has ever done that.

Also the bit in bold, I agree to an extent, but I don't believe Vettel is in the same class as Hamilton.

 

[Nobby Nobbs]

Statistically, Clark is arguably the greatest. Some of his ratios are insane, especially at a time of extreme danger.

Jim Clark still holds the record for most races with pole, win, fastest lap, and leading every lap – 8. He also holds a record for the highest percentage of laps in the lead in a season - 71.47% in 1963 season.

Jim Clarks shares 9th overall place for most wins in Formula 1 with Niki Lauda. Both drivers have 25 victories. However, having entered only 73 races in his career, Jim Clark has a win percentage of incredible 34.25%, being surpassed by Lewis Hamilton (35.36%) in the 2020!

Jim Clark is also 3rd and 7th driver in the history of the Formula 1 with the highest percentage of wins in a season – 70% in 1963 and 60% in 1965. He also shares second place for most consecutive wins at the same Grand Prix in history (4) with many other Formula 1 greats such as Fangio, Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton.

Jim Clark is 5th best overall in regard of total pole positions – 33 career pole positions, with very notable fact that that is 45.21% of all races entered. Only better driver percentage-wise is Juan Manuel Fangio (55.77%)

Thanks for that mate absolute brilliant stats for someone who only entered 73 races, saw a documentary about him earlier in the year great watch, really was revered by everyone who worked with him and raced against him one of the true greats. Didn’t he win the indie 500 at his first attempt?

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

Button was a lot more experienced than Hamilton at that stage.

There's no doubt that Schumacher had a huge influence on Ferrari, but he also competed in a time where there was no limit in testing. Ferrari did and continue to receive the most financial support from the FIA, so they always had an advantage. Ferrari still receive a 'longstanding team fee' for their longevity in the sport, which I completely disagree with.

I suppose if we're talking about who is the better driver then I don't think we're going to agree. For me, Lewis has had far more competition in his career to contend with, albeit it mainy within his own team. I also have trouble lauding Schumacher so much because of the way he treated his opponents. People will point the finger at Hamilton for his crash yesterday, but Schumacher is well known for deliberately ruininig the races of his competitors to his advantage. I don't believe Hamilton has ever done that.

Also the bit in bold, I agree to an extent, but I don't believe Vettel is in the same class as Hamilton.

Schumacher went in when Ferrari had been absolutely nowhere for years and years. He was the key to turning them into a dominant force. The argument about competition is flawed, as Hamilton has had virtually none through the Mercedes years.

Schumacher was up against (often in inferior machinery) Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Montoya, Alonso, Coulthard, Prost, Senna, Hill, Mansell, Button, Montoya, etc.

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

Thanks for that mate absolute brilliant stats for someone who only entered 73 races, saw a documentary about him earlier in the year great watch, really was revered by everyone who worked with him and raced against him one of the true greats. Didn’t he win the indie 500 at his first attempt?

It says a lot that Jackie Stewart, who went out at the top, never hesitates to say that Clark was a much better driver than he was!

Senna himself said Clark was the "best of the best."

 

[evilwebby]

Very true, never saw Jim Clark race only started watching when Mansell was driving ( probably still my fav driver that red 5 will always stick in my memory) but when you listen to the older drivers they put Clark up with the very best there’s ever been that includes Schumacher and Senna.

Maybe.. but only because they were too young to have seen Fangio?

Clark was undoubtedly the finest driver of his generation, but he certainly had worthy competition from Moss at the start and Stewart at the end of his career.

F1 history is always being rewritten and updated. I love listening to the stories of drivers from before my time watching, but I feel I can only comment on drivers that I have seen.

F1 is about continual renewal and optimisation, and the gaps are much smaller than they used to be. Today there is probably no more than 1 second in genuine pace that covers 1st down to 17th or 18th place (you always get one or two hopeless cases), whereas that spread would probably have been 2 seconds in the 80s and 3 seconds in the 60s. That doesn't mean that Hamilton is not as standout a talent as Senna or Clark, just that as standards have risen the nature of the sport has changed.

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

Maybe.. but only because they were too young to have seen Fangio?

Clark was undoubtedly the finest driver of his generation, but he certainly had worthy competition from Moss at the start and Stewart at the end of his career.

F1 history is always being rewritten and updated. I love listening to the stories of drivers from before my time watching, but I feel I can only comment on drivers that I have seen.

F1 is about continual renewal and optimisation, and the gaps are much smaller than they used to be. Today there is probably no more than 1 second in genuine pace that covers 1st down to 17th or 18th place (you always get one or two hopeless cases), whereas that spread would probably have been 2 seconds in the 80s and 3 seconds in the 60s. That doesn't mean that Hamilton is not as standout a talent as Senna or Clark, just that as standards have risen the nature of the sport has changed.

Funnily enough, Fangio himself said Clark was the best.

 

[The binman chronicles]

He was at McLaren, until his performances dipped and they got Button in. He ended up outperforming Hamilton over their time together.

That's lazy Lewis hater talk. He marginally beat him in total points over 3 years due to 1 good season and one bad one for Lewis. Had Hulkenburg not crashed into Hamilton in Brazil that wouldn't have been a 25 point swing in Button's favour and that stat would have been gone too. When you have finished ahead of your teammate in 2/3 seasons, had more wins/poles you haven't been 'outperformed'.

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

That's lazy Lewis hater talk. He marginally beat him in total points over 3 years due to 1 good season and one bad one for Lewis. Had Hulkenburg not crashed into Hamilton in Brazil that wouldn't have been a 25 point swing in Button's favour and that stat would have been gone too. When you have finished ahead of your teammate in 2/3 seasons, had more wins/poles you haven't been 'outperformed'.

Yes he was, marginally. Depending on your yardstick, you can also make a case for Lewis. They key here is he did not show himself to be head and shoulders above Button.

 

[Chewbacca]

The point I love about drivers like Clark, Hill, Surtees, McLaren etc is that when there was an empty weekend they would be off racing saloon cars and sportscars. They were all round drivers. Would love to see Hamilton in the BTCC.