Current Affairs EU In or Out

[bflefc]

Do you live in a bubble where it won't affect you?

No, I'm just comfortable in accepting the majority vote and moving forward. Whatever the outcome of the referendum there'd have been negotiations and machinations to dot Is and cross Ts - even if we'd had voted to remain. Again, I'd not have been concerned with that, only that we'd have observed the will of the people of they'd have voted to remain.

 

[Neiler]

We (leave voters) voted for Brexit - to leave the EU - not for Boris or Farage or the Tories (unless we did vote for them at the election). This was a vote about something that goes across party boundaries, something that is of fundamental importance (however one voted) to the sovereignity of the country and that we had not been given a chance to have our say on before. A referendum was the only really democratic way of deciding an issue like this and IMO absolutely vital to have.

That the fundamental premise of a referendum mate. problem is look who you have negotiating this exit and the national/party politics of this matter are impossible to separate from the brexit issue itself. You have an also ran PM who the country hasn't voted for yet and Boris - talking about prosecco. That article I posted is exactly why the UK are in a very poor negotiating position.

The choices are clear not be in the EU, but things stay exactly the same as if you were in it.

Or look on through meltdown as the rest of Europe plays with the flashy toys.

I would be worried with the political vacum and identities and skills of those left to tackle this, that link is a case in point!

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It's what we did for Germany. Germany however do not seem to want to do anything similar.......

You wouldn't advocate throwing money at a bath with its plug out would you? As with most aid these days, it had certain strings attached to it regarding reforms to the market in Greece. No reforms, no money. It surely seems sensible that the things that contributed to the dire straights the country found itself in were fixed before more money was thrown after bad. From what I recall at the time, that was very much a line of thought you agreed with Pete.

 

[bflefc]

Think we've reached hubberts peak here lads

Very droll!!

 

[Pienaar's gloves]

No, I'm just comfortable in accepting the majority vote and moving forward. Whatever the outcome of the referendum there'd have been negotiations and machinations to dot Is and cross Ts - even if we'd had voted to remain. Again, I'd not have been concerned with that, only that we'd have observed the will of the people of they'd have voted to remain.

I accept the out vote and believe we should and will leave as the people have expressed their will.

The next steps are unbelievably important and were not on the ballot paper, thus need scrutinising.

 

[Pienaar's gloves]

Greece was a muck up and whilst I appreciate they couldn't keep throwing cash at it forever, lives were ruined and people most likely died.

A true EU cock up for sure - though the Greeks hardly helped themselves.

 

[bring the ghost on]

Well, if people had a modicum of intelligence, and could reasonably reason things out for themselves, then that is telling them that the amount sent over weekly, gross, (outwith any paybacks, rebates, etc,) is equal to the cost of a hospital.

Yep, of course, blame the people who were foolish enough to believe it, rather than those who manipulated them.

 

[peteblue]

You wouldn't advocate throwing money at a bath with its plug out would you? As with most aid these days, it had certain strings attached to it regarding reforms to the market in Greece. No reforms, no money. It surely seems sensible that the things that contributed to the dire straights the country found itself in were fixed before more money was thrown after bad. From what I recall at the time, that was very much a line of thought you agreed with Pete.

I do Bruce, but in the same way we would not let NI or Scotland go to the wall, I find the the EU position a bit unpalatable. Germany more than any other EU country has made a lot of money out of the club med countries selling their BMW's etc. Their reticence to even attempt support, especially as they are dealing with the migrant mess created by Merkel, I find disturbing.......if Greece were out of the Euro, or better still that the EU did not allow their numbers to be fudged to even allow them to enter,then they would have a fighting chance, but stuck in the Euro they have no chance......

 

[JonS]

You wouldn't advocate throwing money at a bath with its plug out would you? As with most aid these days, it had certain strings attached to it regarding reforms to the market in Greece. No reforms, no money. It surely seems sensible that the things that contributed to the dire straights the country found itself in were fixed before more money was thrown after bad. From what I recall at the time, that was very much a line of thought you agreed with Pete.

Greece was a muck up and whilst I appreciate they couldn't keep throwing cash at it forever, lives were ruined and people most likely died.

A true EU cock up for sure - though the Greeks hardly helped themselves.

I come across people in debt in my job. Whatever their own role in getting themselves into the debt you have to give them a way out by freezing repayments or writing some off while prioritising others.

Here is Yanis Varoufakis again on the Greek debt:

"Europe in its infinite wisdom decided to deal with this bankruptcy by loading the largest loan in human history on the weakest of shoulders … What we’ve been having ever since is a kind of fiscal waterboarding that has turned this nation into a debt colony.

[The eurozone] resembles a fine riverboat that was launched on a still ocean in 2000. And then the first storm that hit it, in 2008, started creating serious structural problems for it. We started leaking water. And of course, the people in the third class, as in the Titanic, start feeling the drowning effects first"

and here is more from Yanis about the EU and the whole financial system: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/06/yanis-varoufakis-some-of-his-best-quotes

 

[Toffeelover]

Greece was a muck up and whilst I appreciate they couldn't keep throwing cash at it forever, lives were ruined and people most likely died.

A true EU cock up for sure - though the Greeks hardly helped themselves.

A great deal of Greece's problem lies at the door of Germany. Did you know that Greece has more tanks than the British Army and what are they why Leopards from Germany. Greece still owes Germany millions for those tanks and other weapons, the debt which Germany will not lessen, hypocrisy knows no bounds except German borders.

 

[peteblue]

I come across people in debt in my job. Whatever their own role in getting themselves into the debt you have to give them a way out by freezing repayments or writing some off while prioritising others.

Here is Yanis Varoufakis again on the Greek debt:

"Europe in its infinite wisdom decided to deal with this bankruptcy by loading the largest loan in human history on the weakest of shoulders … What we’ve been having ever since is a kind of fiscal waterboarding that has turned this nation into a debt colony.

[The eurozone] resembles a fine riverboat that was launched on a still ocean in 2000. And then the first storm that hit it, in 2008, started creating serious structural problems for it. We started leaking water. And of course, the people in the third class, as in the Titanic, start feeling the drowning effects first"

and here is more from Yanis about the EU and the whole financial system: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/06/yanis-varoufakis-some-of-his-best-quotes

He comes across quite well this guy, don't agree with him most of the time, but I'd have a pint with him....

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I do Bruce, but in the same way we would not let NI or Scotland go to the wall, I find the the EU position a bit unpalatable. Germany more than any other EU country has made a lot of money out of the club med countries selling their BMW's etc. Their reticence to even attempt support, especially as they are dealing with the migrant mess created by Merkel, I find disturbing.......if Greece were out of the Euro, or better still that the EU did not allow their numbers to be fudged to even allow them to enter,then they would have a fighting chance, but stuck in the Euro they have no chance......

From what I understand, the EU has offered quite a lot of support to Greece, whether it's negotiating a deal with Turkey that sees them processing the bulk of the migrants, or offering support to help process what remains. I dare say that they've received considerably more support from Germany in that time than they have from Britain. In terms of finances, I believe the aid package they agreed with Greece is worth roughly 10x the value of their exports to the country. They're hardly standing by and doing nothing.

 

[peteblue]

From what I understand, the EU has offered quite a lot of support to Greece, whether it's negotiating a deal with Turkey that sees them processing the bulk of the migrants, or offering support to help process what remains. I dare say that they've received considerably more support from Germany in that time than they have from Britain. In terms of finances, I believe the aid package they agreed with Greece is worth roughly 10x the value of their exports to the country. They're hardly standing by and doing nothing.

Germany is not offering any of her own money. They caused the problem then sought EU money to fix it by offering bribes to Turkey. Greece has been left in no mans land....Germany is being driven purely by the chaos that Merkel produced as a way of getting her off the hook.........

 

[Bruce Wayne]

A great deal of Greece's problem lies at the door of Germany. Did you know that Greece has more tanks than the British Army and what are they why Leopards from Germany. Greece still owes Germany millions for those tanks and other weapons, the debt which Germany will not lessen, hypocrisy knows no bounds except German borders.

It's perhaps worth remembering that the interest payments on Greek debt amounts to around 2.5% of their GDP. In Portugal and Italy, by way of contrast, it's nearer 5%. This notion that they're being crippled by debt is not supported by facts.

 

[peteblue]

It's perhaps worth remembering that the interest payments on Greek debt amounts to around 2.5% of their GDP. In Portugal and Italy, by way of contrast, it's nearer 5%. This notion that they're being crippled by debt is not supported by facts.

It's 175% of GDP.......There is only one country in the world with a higher number......