Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Neiler]

Great post mate.

I am very aware that the UK electorate is entitled to make up its own mind, but objectively we are looking on from ROI and scratching our heads as to why the UK did what it did.

The EU is a PITA for MSs in many ways but the benefits of membership far outweigh the negatives. We punch above our weight because we usually try to find agreement where there is difficulty. Thus Ireland is seen as a positive influence overall in spite of our small population. That does not give us a free pass - nor should it btw - in terms of conformity with EU standards.

Yes the Commission is unelected and all powerful, but the upside is unfettered access to 500 million people

I had plenty of difficult meetings with Commission officialdom which, if they went wrong, could have cost Ireland hundreds of millions. It is not easy, one has to retain composure and determination, but the UK walking away from nearly fifty years of commitment was short sighted.

I know that plenty of my UK colleagues were really devastated with the Brexit vote as they understood the implications for GB. However, I don't think the GB voters gave a toss about the complications that would be caused in NI.

Sadly Brexit is being used by dinosaur 22% Donaldson to beat his Lambeg drum and disenfranchise 78% from having a NI Assembly and Executive

It’s fascinating to hear your insights mate, from someone who worked on the inside as it were. The trouble often with debate is it becomes polarised when often things are nuanced, as you say I’m sure working in the administration was a PITA, but then the pay off, in such nuances the clever play is born.

Its something I never got my head around how the U.K. apply democracy, your example is perfect, how can a U.K. Government collude with 22% of a vote in a country, when the opposite has the popular democratic ascent, while also colluding with the collapse of political devolution and institutions, that’s not democracy. The peace was to hard won.

Brexit itself is another example of a lack democracy, four countries but when it comes to something like Brexit, its all lumped together to vote as a whole, England will always get its way in that case, to my mind that’s gerrymandering. Northern Ireland and Scotland voted not to be part of Brexit due to their own national concern, their democratic and nationalistic voice wasn’t heard, they essentially didn’t have a nationalistic vote. I studied in the U.K. on the cirriculiam was law and politics, I could never get my head around the application of democracy.

Don’t get me wrong I think the U.K. is incredible in so many ways, I trained, lived and and worked their for a few years and I respect it a lot and grateful in a lot of ways, I’m coming from a place of concern for it, or what it’s become or becoming, I find it just stranger then fiction.

 

[Bluerover]

It’s fascinating to hear your insights mate, from someone who worked on the inside as it where. The trouble often with debate is it becomes polarised when often things are nuanced, as you say I’m sure working in the administration was a PITA, but then the pay off, in such nuances the clever play is born.

Its something I never got my head around how the U.K. apply democracy, your example is perfect, how can a U.K. Government collude with 22% of a vote in a country, while also colluding with the collapse of political devolution, that’s not democracy.

Brexit itself is another example of a lack democracy, four countries but when it comes to something like Brexit, its all lumped to get her to vote as a hole, England will always get its way in that case, to my mind that’s gerrymandering. Northern Ireland and Scotland voted not to be part of Brexit due to their own national concern, their democratic and nationalistic voice wasn’t heard, they essentially didn’t have a nationalistic vote. I studied in the U.K. on the cirriculiam was law and politics, I could never get my head head around the application of democracy.

Don’t get me wrong I think the U.K. is incredible in so many ways, I trained, lived and and worked their for a few years and I respect it a lot and grateful in a lot of ways, I’m coming from a place of concern for it, or what it’s become or becoming, I find it just stranger then fiction.

Ireland is no push over. Lest it be forgotten, ROI voted no to Nice and Lisbon, but we were told to vote again until we "got it right". That really annoyed me I must say. However, back to the economic realities - we are far better inside than outside. I still have the bruises from rows with EU Commission over all those years - however we kept smiling and usually reached an acceptable agreement, whether on legislation or on audits.

Picking the ball up and walking away was never an option for the good of the nation at large. Sometimes my tongue was shredded from my biting!!

I have nothing but respect for most English people that I have met - ffs I lie awake at night worrying about an English Club!

The little englanders are very much in the minority, and I found great friendship with UK reps in EU, UN and FAO meetings that I attended over 20 years in different Departments. Yes we differed in some things, but we agreed on much more. The number of idiots I met I could count on probably three fingers.

I won't comment on Scotland and NI being forced against their democratic will into Brexit by England's population - your point is already well made.

My East Belfast Loyalist mate of 35 years who now lives in Bristol voted Remain. He is an educated Civil Servant and is really annoyed at the result. He realises the economic impact it is having on GB and potentially on his NI brethren if NI finds itself outside the current tariff free access to the EU through ROI

 

[Neiler]

Ireland is no push over. Lest it be forgotten, ROI voted no to Nice and Lisbon, but we were told to vote again until we "got it right". That really annoyed me I must say. However, back to the economic realities - we are far better inside than outside. I still have the bruises from rows with EU Commission over all those years - however we kept smiling and usually reached an acceptable agreement, whether on legislation or on audits.

Picking the ball up and walking away was never an option for the good of the nation at large. Sometimes my tongue was shredded from my biting!!

I have nothing but respect for most English people that I have met - ffs I lie awake at night worrying about an English Club!

The little englanders are very much in the minority, and I found great friendship with UK reps in EU, UN and FAO meetings that I attended over 20 years in different Departments. Yes we differed in some things, but we agreed on much more. The number of idiots I met I could count on probably three fingers.

I won't comment on Scotland and NI being forced against their democratic will into Brexit by England's population - your point is already well made.

My East Belfast Loyalist mate of 35 years who now lives in Bristol voted Remain. He is an educated Civil Servant and is really annoyed at the result. He realises the economic impact it is having on GB and potentially on his NI brethren if NI finds itself outside the current tariff free access to the EU through ROI

Brilliant stuff mate, I’d love an hour nattering with you - picking your braines over a coffee or a pint of porter. I’d say you have some tales from Goverment to Goverment over the years!

Sounds like a fascinating expierence rich career, do you miss it?

 

[Jebus_lives]

All that tells me is that it was lunacy to actually leave the EU. Look at that simple example of the burden and cost placed on a UK business exporting to the EU i.e. the ROI. Staying in the free market none of that was necessary. Its like chopping your hand off, then complaining that you cant wear gloves.

Nobody could've known that this would happen!!!

 

[Jebus_lives]

Waiting for the inevitable "the EU are making us do what we promised we'd do".

We continue down this route we will force the EU (let's not pretend they're some benevolent entity) to demonstrate every ounce of force it can towards the UK. That might play well in the short term for Johnson and the Telegraph/Mail cultists "we told you the EU were bad!", but it will be unpleasant for the UK and the majority of the public.

You cannot leave the EU with the option of taking its member states a border no longer exists, having a hard border in Ireland or telling Ireland it's on the other side of the border. They will take every single action necessary to ensure that doesn't happen.

Perhaps we need to accept that the thing we voted for, the thing we pushed for, we negotiated for, we broke constitutional convention to achieve, prevented further extension for, pushed through the legislative process and declared a glorious day for the UK when it was signed...nobody forced us to sign that protocol, we engineered it and now we're dealing with the precise thing we were told would happen.

We got exactly what we expected, I don't understand why we want to renegotiate?

 

[Bluerover]

Brilliant stuff mate, I’d love an hour nattering with you - picking your braines over a coffee or a pint a of porter. I’d say you have some tales from Goverment to Goverment over the years!

Sounds like a fascinating expierence rich career, do you miss it?

I really loved it until 2016 when i was at what I regard as the height of happiness at home and at work. My job then changed - at the request of the Sec Gen for whom I had the greatest respect. He had been my manager for three years before he got the top job and we worked really well together - and I found myself reporting to the manager from hell.

My mother was diagnosed with vascular dementia in Jan 2017, my wife with C in July 2018 and by May 2020 I was just exhausted. I hated going to work where before I bounced out of bed.

The three years and a few months from Dec 2016 to May 2020 were horrible. Incredible how one bully can destroy a person. Anyway, I can now enjoy retirement albeit I know I could have continued to contribute from my experience had I not ended up with this muppet.

TBH, I loved the tete-a tete debates and meetings with EU in my earlier jobs. From Social Welfare to Health to Agriculture, yes, I have a lot of interesting experiences. I had nothing but good experiences with our own Ministers although I had some difficult meetings with a Minister of another Department - no names no pack drill!! An absolute galoot.

Do I miss it? To a degree, but I do not miss 2017-2020 which ultimately damaged me. Annoying that a career that began in 1984 should be prematurely ended by an anal micro managing sly bullying *****.

 

[Neiler]

I really loved it until 2016 when i was at what I regard as the height of happiness at home and at work. My job then changed - at the request of the Sec Gen for whom I had the greatest respect. He had been my manager for three years before he got the top job and we worked really well together - and I found myself reporting to the manager from hell.

My mother was diagnosed with vascular dementia in Jan 2017, my wife with C in July 2018 and by May 2020 I was just exhausted. I hated going to work where before I bounced out of bed.

The three years and a few months from Dec 2016 to May 2020 were horrible. Incredible how one bully can destroy a person. Anyway, I can now enjoy retirement albeit I know I could have continued to contribute from my experience had I not ended up with this muppet.

TBH, I loved the tete-a tete debates and meetings with EU in my earlier jobs. From Social Welfare to Health to Agriculture, yes, I have a lot of interesting experiences. I had nothing but good experiences with our own Ministers although I had some difficult meetings with a Minister of another Department - no names no pack drill!! An absolute galoot.

Do I miss it? To a degree, but I do not miss 2017-2020 which ultimately damaged me. Annoying that a career that began in 1984 should be prematurely ended by an anal micro managing sly bullying *****.

Youve done it mate and did it successfully by the sound of it, rich life experience as I said. Illness however is the great perspective giver, it shows what’s important and where your time needs to be, there is a reason we work, it’s look after those precious toys, but there comes a time where time with them becomes the most precious thing. Hope the girls are doing well, are well or as well as they can be!

Enjoy the well earned retirement and enjoy the people who mean the most - it’s what it’s all about.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Like Ross Atkins myself succinct and to the point, with tones of exasperating sarcasm.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av-embeds/uk-61436985"

 

[Methuselah]

I think it protects European industry particularly agriculture, I think by doing this though it gives baseline, regulation, standards and support, the pay back is supply chain and certainty in the sector and so the mutality of the supply chain in terms of continuity, standard and support is met. I think we all know there are huge concerns around South American meat for example, it’s cheaper for a reason. @Bluerover worked at Goverment and administration and he’d know more then me, but just for illustrative purposes.

On the flip side the EU also promotes competition. For example I bought the same Battery Lawnmower of a German company online, 100 euro cheaper then the local B&Q here. I bought a Heineken Blade Beer machine 200 euro cheaper from Italy, equally stuff that uniquely Irish is cheap here. So from that point of view competition is rife amongst business’s all around Europe. That’s the market the U.K. can’t function in any more, a pity as I often bought things from U.K. business. I was after wall lights a couple of weeks back and I sourced ones I wanted in a UK electrical outlet, they were 40 euro for the lights, to bring them into the EU it was addition 60 odd euro estimated and the company said that may not be the final duty bill. Needless to say - no thanks.

Id propose the idea of Brexit is protectionist, wasn’t it all about, doing your own trade deals, reclaiming the borders, Britain doing what’s best for Britain, isn’t that protectionist. Leaving one block, to act as a smaller one.

What I often find weird is the U.K. is a collection of four countries, basically controlled by England looking after themselves from London mutually. The argument against the EU is it’s 28 countries looking after themselves from Brussels mutually. Essentially the same thing just the EU having broader scope and clout.

Brexit to my mind, was a bad political decision to hold a vote and went wrong, it wiped out a generation of U.K. politicians of a high caliber in resignations and left politicians of a low caliber to grab at power they never would normally have got near, be a good 10 years until the antivirus is run, but lads like Boris have a shelf life and the EU know it, it will be over soon, the coming recession might do it.

So it protects EU industry particularly agriculture. You mean like in the Ukraine situation currently? Also sounds like you want to manipulate the vote in a slightly different way.

 

[nsno-chris]

Ok found it.

M&S: Protocol will mean lorries ‘need 700 pages of documents'

Marks & Spencer chairman and former Tory MP Archie Norman said the Northern Ireland protocol is “very, very onerous” and costs the business “about £30 million”.

www.newsletter.co.uk

The Latin refers to species of plants and flowers I would think unless he has a problem with ovine, bovine, porcine, equine as English language descriptions of meat.

My experience is in meat and animal health. I cannot speak on requirements for import of plant species but I would be shocked at 700 pages - I think we might have heard about this before now

I take it, being a former meat inspector, you never dealt with fishery products. There was a saying at BIP's when the IUU Regs was introduced, it was "save a fish, kill a tree". I've known consignment of fishery products from the Maldives and Ecuador to be in excess of 400 pages; we lobbied the FSA in the hope the hope they would then take this to the commission. So it's highly possible, albeit rare

 

[Bluerover]

I take it, being a former meat inspector, you never dealt with fishery products. There was a saying at BIP's when the IUU Regs was introduced, it was "save a fish, kill a tree". I've known consignment of fishery products from the Maldives and Ecuador to be in excess of 400 pages; we lobbied the FSA in the hope the hope they would then take this to the commission. So it's highly possible, albeit rare

No I wasn't an Inspector but I was a HOD over a Division that included policy for BIPs regarding imports of food of animal origin.

Fisheries is a separate part of the Ministry - Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and I have no experience of that side apart from being at working groups for the implementation of the Hygiene Package (Regs 852, 853 and 854 of 2004), which covered all food and feed - however, my Marine colleagues never mentioned that level of red tape for third country imports - probably because any fishery product was coming from other EU states and it wasn't an issue.

Ridiculous for that level of bureaucracy if that is the case

 

[nsno-chris]

No I wasn't an Inspector but I was a HOD over a Division that included policy for BIPs regarding imports of food of animal origin.

Fisheries is a separate part of the Ministry - Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and I have no experience of that side apart from being at working groups for the implementation of the Hygiene Package (Regs 852, 853 and 854 of 2004), which covered all food and feed - however, my Marine colleagues never mentioned that level of red tape for third country imports - probably because any fishery product was coming from other EU states and it wasn't an issue.

Ridiculous for that level of bureaucracy if that is the case

Again, another good idea that has been absolutely butchered on implementation by the EU. Not only does the requirement include a certificate for each catch but the certificates are not auditable. Its well known throughout the majority of BCP's that vessels are reusing the same certificates over and over again, totally negating the point of the regs; which is to manage the fisheries.

The level of bureaucracy within the EU has, and will continue to be, over the top. Like I said the other day, the idea is great, the implementation is awful

 

[Bluerover]

Again, another good idea that has been absolutely butchered on implementation by the EU. Not only does the requirement include a certificate for each catch but the certificates are not auditable. Its well known throughout the majority of BCP's that vessels are reusing the same certificates over and over again, totally negating the point of the regs; which is to manage the fisheries.

The level of bureaucracy within the EU has, and will continue to be, over the top. Like I said the other day, the idea is great, the implementation is awful

Every day a school day. I can only speak from my own experience which was FOAO and latterly Animal Health. As I said earlier, there were a few hiccups in the early months of last year but we worked closely with DEFRA and DAERA to smooth things as much as possible. Things were running pretty well at the time of my retirement last November.

We also met regularly with the major retailers that imported meat from GB, and these meetings smoothed out the bumps from the early days.

Brexit required massive infrastructural changes at our BIPS, and the recruitment of lots of new veterinary staff, for product coming from GB. As regards exports, it has been a bonus for ferry companies who have now put on more sailings direct from Dublin to France. Landbridge through GB via Dover became untenable for many exporters due to the massive delays.

 

[Neiler]

So it protects EU industry particularly agriculture. You mean like in the Ukraine situation currently? Also sounds like you want to manipulate the vote in a slightly different way.

Ukraine aren't in the EU mate.

 

[nsno-chris]

Every day a school day. I can only speak from my own experience which was FOAO and latterly Animal Health. As I said earlier, there were a few hiccups in the early months of last year but we worked closely with DEFRA and DAERA to smooth things as much as possible. Things were running pretty well at the time of my retirement last November.

We also met regularly with the major retailers that imported meat from GB, and these meetings smoothed out the bumps from the early days.

Brexit required massive infrastructural changes at our BIPS, and the recruitment of lots of new veterinary staff, for product coming from GB. As regards exports, it has been a bonus for ferry companies who have now put on more sailings direct from Dublin to France. Landbridge through GB via Dover became untenable for many exporters due to the massive delays.

We also had major issues recruiting Vet staff, one of the first "pushbacks" of the implementation date actually came from the EU due to them being unable to recruit OV's. That, obviously, impacted the UK as well as there was literally no OV's anywhere (in fact, I think I mentioned this a couple of years back when Farage was on the radio).

The other impact was the lack of suitable qualified Environmental Health/Port Health Officers; the UK implements Official Controls differently with OV's taking sole responsibility for POAO products with the exception of fishery products. These are the responsibility of EHO/PHO's, along with Organic imports and all FNAO products imported under 2017/625. The lack of suitably qualified staff created an open market, with agency staff quoting in excess of £100 per hour (compared to a salary of £35k a year). On top of this, we also had to lobby the FSA and the CIEH (Charted Institute of Environmental Health) to change their requirements on what qualifies as a PHO. The stringent requirement, basically aimed at protecting the EHO status, made the recruitment almost impossible. Ports were looking at in excess of 1000 staff being employed to cover all the new BCP's.

The infrastructure was also an issue for the UK. Major Ports like Liverpool, London, Felixstowe, Southampton all had existing BCPs, not large enough to deal with an increase in EU goods, but at least there was something. Major entry points at places like Dover, Eurotunnel, Harwich, Plymouth, North East Lincs had no infrastructure at all. These have, and are continuing to, be built to ensure compliance with the regs.

There was also the issue of IPAFFS, building a brand new system to deal with border notifications has been a nightmare. Once we left, Traces got cut off.

All this time, money and we still haven't conducted a single check on an EU Product. Everything is going past the border, unchecked and we have no idea what is being imported from the EU.