Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
Status
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The fact that for many years, even after the A8 accession, immigration from non-EU countries was comparable to that from EU countries suggests that things weren't that unfair, especially as on most objective criteria non-EU migrants were less educated, would be less likely to be employed, and so on. Again, they're the ones that are "managed", so it's a funny world where you would take what appear to be poorer outcomes and say we should do more of that and less of the butting out, even when that produces better outcomes. We're also omitting, of course, the removal of our right to live and work in 27 countries, which always seems to be ignored as though that's a piddling thing to have stripped from us.

For what it's worth, I don't believe there will ever be open borders because it's too easy for politicians (whether right wing ones scaring us about brown people sullying our racial purity or left wing ones scaring us about migrants undercutting wages) to trot out lies, and for their supporters in the media to amplify those lies, against a part of society that has no vote and much less power than native citizens. Few people actually have the time, nor I suspect the inclination, to actually bother researching things, so they swallow whatever fits their heuristic of the world, and there's a strong evolutionary tendency to fear the out-group. If you're happy to go along with that charade then by all means, that is your prerogative, but we'll all be worse off for it.
You aren't comparing like with like Bruce in those figures. All student visas were issued to none EU citizens as were all those granted asylum. The former was a significant number pre covid, the latter not so. But the number of none EU work permits issued pre Brexit was greatly restricted and a fraction of those coming to work in the UK from EU countries. And Brexit also means that the "brown people" will now have the same opportunities as the white people coming in from the EU. Personally, I think that's fair but still get racist insinuations thrown in my direction. Work that one out.
 
You aren't comparing like with like Bruce in those figures. All student visas were issued to none EU citizens as were all those granted asylum. The former was a significant number pre covid, the latter not so. But the number of none EU work permits issued pre Brexit was greatly restricted and a fraction of those coming to work in the UK from EU countries. And Brexit also means that the "brown people" will now have the same opportunities as the white people coming in from the EU. Personally, I think that's fair but still get racist insinuations thrown in my direction. Work that one out.
As I've explained before, you're still advocating that foreigners are treated differently to UK citizens, which as the citizens advice link below illustrates, fits the definition of racial discrimination. Heaven knows I would love for the free movement we enjoyed under EU membership to be extended globally, but it did at least put EU citizens and UK citizens on an equal footing. You voted to remove that and say that because everyone non-Brit is now a 2nd class citizen that it's okay. It's not.


It's akin to choosing to re-enforce segregation and extend it to Asians and Hispanics too, and then claim that's great because it's at least treating non-whites equally. If you want to be truly fair then people should be treated equally, as the Equality Act states. That isn't the case as foreign citizens are not treated the same as British citizens.
 
As I've explained before, you're still advocating that foreigners are treated differently to UK citizens, which as the citizens advice link below illustrates, fits the definition of racial discrimination. Heaven knows I would love for the free movement we enjoyed under EU membership to be extended globally, but it did at least put EU citizens and UK citizens on an equal footing. You voted to remove that and say that because everyone non-Brit is now a 2nd class citizen that it's okay. It's not.


It's akin to choosing to re-enforce segregation and extend it to Asians and Hispanics too, and then claim that's great because it's at least treating non-whites equally. If you want to be truly fair then people should be treated equally, as the Equality Act states. That isn't the case as foreign citizens are not treated the same as British citizens.
No.

What I am saying is that when we were in the EU, we did not treat all non UK citizens the same. We gave EU citizens a lot more rights and privileges than we did non EU citizens. Is that right? Is that fair? Obviously you thought it was. Even though the vast majority of the EU population would be classed as white, and the vast majority of non EU citizens would be classed a non white. By your on definitions above that must clearly be regarded as racist. No?

Post Brexit, roughly 10% of the worlds population will find it harder to obtain work in the UK, and roughly 90% will find it easier. In reality those figures aren't true because not everybody will have the skills required, but still, more avenues have been opened than closed.
 
No.

What I am saying is that when we were in the EU, we did not treat all non UK citizens the same. We gave EU citizens a lot more rights and privileges than we did non EU citizens. Is that right? Is that fair? Obviously you thought it was. Even though the vast majority of the EU population would be classed as white, and the vast majority of non EU citizens would be classed a non white. By your on definitions above that must clearly be regarded as racist. No?

Post Brexit, roughly 10% of the worlds population will find it harder to obtain work in the UK, and roughly 90% will find it easier. In reality those figures aren't true because not everybody will have the skills required, but still, more avenues have been opened than closed.
Just so we're all clear, why do you think Brexit has enabled us to do this?
 
No.

What I am saying is that when we were in the EU, we did not treat all non UK citizens the same. We gave EU citizens a lot more rights and privileges than we did non EU citizens. Is that right? Is that fair? Obviously you thought it was. Even though the vast majority of the EU population would be classed as white, and the vast majority of non EU citizens would be classed a non white. By your on definitions above that must clearly be regarded as racist. No?

Post Brexit, roughly 10% of the worlds population will find it harder to obtain work in the UK, and roughly 90% will find it easier. In reality those figures aren't true because not everybody will have the skills required, but still, more avenues have been opened than closed.
No, it's not a situation I would like, but it's better to have (I'll assume your figures are accurate for illustrative purposes) 10% of the population with equal rights to British citizens than 0%, which is what you're lauding as a great deal for mankind. Obviously I would love to get to 100% equality, but you seem happy to have none at all.
 
No, it's not a situation I would like, but it's better to have (I'll assume your figures are accurate for illustrative purposes) 10% of the population with equal rights to British citizens than 0%, which is what you're lauding as a great deal for mankind. Obviously I would love to get to 100% equality, but you seem happy to have none at all.
You seem to love putting words in my mouth that never came out of them.

I have never lauded any Brexit deal as a great deal for mankind. Ever. As regards immigration/free movement, all I've said is I believe the post Brexit situation is fairer. And it is fairer. You'd prefer a boys club situation which is fine when you're on the inside but not so fine when you're on the outside.

Again, as regards total free movement worldwide, I have never said I am against it. I don't believe it will ever happen as I think it would be unworkable in practice, but the aspirations are a fine and honourable one.
 
You seem to love putting words in my mouth that never came out of them.

I have never lauded any Brexit deal as a great deal for mankind. Ever. As regards immigration/free movement, all I've said is I believe the post Brexit situation is fairer. And it is fairer. You'd prefer a boys club situation which is fine when you're on the inside but not so fine when you're on the outside.

Again, as regards total free movement worldwide, I have never said I am against it. I don't believe it will ever happen as I think it would be unworkable in practice, but the aspirations are a fine and honourable one.
Everyone is now on the outside if you're not British, and we're now on the outside of everywhere else. I suppose you can make an argument that that's fairer. Its still bollocks though.
 
Everyone is now on the outside if you're not British, and we're now on the outside of everywhere else. I suppose you can make an argument that that's fairer. Its still bollocks though.
It may be bollocks to you which is fair enough. It isn't bollocks to people from outside the EU who may want to come and work here though.
 
You seem to love putting words in my mouth that never came out of them.

I have never lauded any Brexit deal as a great deal for mankind. Ever. As regards immigration/free movement, all I've said is I believe the post Brexit situation is fairer. And it is fairer. You'd prefer a boys club situation which is fine when you're on the inside but not so fine when you're on the outside.

Again, as regards total free movement worldwide, I have never said I am against it. I don't believe it will ever happen as I think it would be unworkable in practice, but the aspirations are a fine and honourable one.
You say it's an honourable aspiration, but then seem quite happy with a move that takes us further away from it than we previously were. That's what I find peculiar.
 
Quite. The government has introduced all manner of hurdles and hoops that limit people's ability to come here, but it's all okay because that will make someone want to hire a Nigerian or Brazilian.
I've already agreed the new immigration laws are not fit for purpose. They're a bit of a joke and will need to be reviewed because the UK needs immigration. When that happens the people in Brazil and Nigeria will have the same opportunities as those in France and Spain. I don't think that's a bad thing. Do you?
You say it's an honourable aspiration, but then seem quite happy with a move that takes us further away from it than we previously were. That's what I find peculiar.
It's an aspiration but not a reality, as I pointed out.

Anyway I'm out now. All we're doing is going over the same ground.
 
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