Current Affairs EU In or Out

[peteblue]

It's hard not to bristle though when the right wing papers are happy to criticise the EU for seemingly blocking the export of vaccines outside of the bloc, when the reality is that they appear to be exporting a bloody lot of them, and quite a bit more than we are. If you read between the lines, it does appear that when the government says they're giving money to COVAX, that means they're giving money rather than vaccines.

I‘m not quite sure what you are bristling about. The EU are exporting nothing, zilch. Companies operating within countries in the EU are exporting contractual and legal orders of product. The EU have however, and are the only body in the world to have done so, put in place export control orders on these vaccines and Italy has actually triggered such a control order on a contractual and legal order to Australia. The U.K. government plays no part in where AZ sends its products, merely expecting what has been contracted to the U.K. to be delivered to the U.K. This is all about contracts or the absence/delay of them.

In respect of Covax, the U.K. has indeed offered to put in a very large sum of money, in addition it has promised to send all of its excess vaccine for Covax usage. This is all in addition to the fact that Oxford University and AZ have offered the vaccine to the world effectively at cost price, while others are sold at many times this price. The U.K. , its companies and its Universities are more than doing their bit. The do not deserve the crying, whinging, EU politicians, who are desperate to offload their own incompetence by blaming the U.K. or Astra Zeneca. The should be ashamed of themselves quite honestly.......

 

[summerisle]

What do we want ?
British wind !
None of that dirty, nasty foreign wind to infect our septic isle. Let's hope the British wind blows on time.
P.S. The inclusion of Union flags at every opportunity is about as subtle as a RS dive in the penalty area.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Just out of interest, and I don’t particularly have an ulterior motive here, but as I know you’re an ardent labour supporter and as brexit has pretty much given the tories free rule for another decade or so, do you at any point think that in hindsight you’d have voted remain?
Same question for @edge also. I guess I’m angling at whether the issue of Brexit superseded traditional politics.

I'll reply to this, as it is a sensible post.

'...do you at any point think that in hindsight you’d have voted remain?...' No.
My thinking:
1. 'In' or 'Out' was a cross-party, not political party, issue; and
2. There is no guarantee of the tories having free rule for the next decade or so - others may think so, but I believe it is up to the Labour Party to provide a credible alternative.

That's all.

 

[roydo]

I'll reply to this, as it is a sensible post.

'...do you at any point think that in hindsight you’d have voted remain?...' No.
My thinking:
1. 'In' or 'Out' was a cross-party, not political party, issue; and
2. There is no guarantee of the tories having free rule for the next decade or so - others may think so, but I believe it is up to the Labour Party to provide a credible alternative.

That's all.

Cant argue with that. But it begs the obvious follow up; say, come the next election, Labour committed to re-entering the EU if they won, who would you vote for?

 

[Old Blue 2]

Cant argue with that. But it begs the obvious follow up; say, come the next election, Labour committed to re-entering the EU if they won, who would you vote for?

I won't answer 'what-ifery' questions, as they more usually refer to pie-in-the-sky scenarios.

However, I will say that if 'Labour committed to re-entering the EU', I fear that they would once again alienate the centre of the country where they lost so many traditional seats to the Tories in the last election. If that was in their manifesto, I think they would not regain those seats, and furthermore, may push the losing margin up towards, or into, treble figures, if voters see they have not changed their stance one iota. Their pro-EU stance last time absolutely slaughtered them - that was there for all to see.

 

[JimmyJeffers]

I won't answer 'what-ifery' questions, as they more usually refer to pie-in-the-sky scenarios.

However, I will say that if 'Labour committed to re-entering the EU', I fear that they would once again alienate the centre of the country where they lost so many traditional seats to the Tories in the last election. If that was in their manifesto, I think they would not regain those seats, and furthermore, may push the losing margin up towards, or into, treble figures, if voters see they have not changed their stance one iota. Their pro-EU stance last time absolutely slaughtered them - that was there for all to see.

You’re probably right, although I would say it was also their confused or more complicated eu stance that turned a lot of the more ambivalent voters away. The ‘get brexit done’ was a powerful message for voters who were sick of the never-ending lack of clarity. The tories knew this and hammered it home, largely refusing to get drawn into other discussions or domestic policy, which labour tried to but were by and large ignored.

 

[roydo]

I won't answer 'what-ifery' questions, as they more usually refer to pie-in-the-sky scenarios.

However, I will say that if 'Labour committed to re-entering the EU', I fear that they would once again alienate the centre of the country where they lost so many traditional seats to the Tories in the last election. If that was in their manifesto, I think they would not regain those seats, and furthermore, may push the losing margin up towards, or into, treble figures, if voters see they have not changed their stance one iota. Their pro-EU stance last time absolutely slaughtered them - that was there for all to see.

Fair enough.

For the record, I wouldnt vote to rejoin anyrate. I know that sounds daft, but the reason is that we would need to adopt the Euro. Which I have always opposed us doing.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I‘m not quite sure what you are bristling about. The EU are exporting nothing, zilch. Companies operating within countries in the EU are exporting contractual and legal orders of product. The EU have however, and are the only body in the world to have done so, put in place export control orders on these vaccines and Italy has actually triggered such a control order on a contractual and legal order to Australia. The U.K. government plays no part in where AZ sends its products, merely expecting what has been contracted to the U.K. to be delivered to the U.K. This is all about contracts or the absence/delay of them.

In respect of Covax, the U.K. has indeed offered to put in a very large sum of money, in addition it has promised to send all of its excess vaccine for Covax usage. This is all in addition to the fact that Oxford University and AZ have offered the vaccine to the world effectively at cost price, while others are sold at many times this price. The U.K. , its companies and its Universities are more than doing their bit. The do not deserve the crying, whinging, EU politicians, who are desperate to offload their own incompetence by blaming the U.K. or Astra Zeneca. The should be ashamed of themselves quite honestly.......

So you overlook the 34 million doses that have been exported out of the EU with no hitches and focus on 250,000 that were not? It's almost like you have an agenda. With regards to Covax, that's a cop out to pledge to send excess doses. You and I both know that this won't happen until everyone here has been vaccinated, which is what's happened so far. All the while people around the world are dying. Do you think it's right that America has huge quantities of the AZ vaccine sitting doing nothing because the vaccine hasn't been approved yet? This is what this nationalism effectively means. People look out for themselves.

Incidentally, do you think it was EU politicians that prompted Denmark to halt usage of the AZ vaccine or Danish officials?

 

[edge]

You’re probably right, although I would say it was also their confused or more complicated eu stance that turned a lot of the more ambivalent voters away. The ‘get brexit done’ was a powerful message for voters who were sick of the never-ending lack of clarity. The tories knew this and hammered it home, largely refusing to get drawn into other discussions or domestic policy, which labour tried to but were by and large ignored.

Labour, were coming out with something new every few days some of which I quite liked(dispute my misgivings on the leadership, not Corbyn but the london set he surrounded himself with) the sitting on the fence didnt play out well, to leave or remain voters neither of which fully got the feeling that the party was to be trusted either way.
Tories just played it simple , if you voted out we will give you it, can you really recall any other policy they had?
Going forward I am not to despondent as I think this government will implode in the near future, certainly Boris will go ,Truss or the chancellor to go forward?
It's up to labour to learn from the last 3 defeats , despite people saying they agree with this or that in public the UK voters will not vote in a Labour party that is to left wing .
Just give the impression of being not dangerous and competent and they will be half way into number 10.

 

[peteblue]

So you overlook the 34 million doses that have been exported out of the EU with no hitches and focus on 250,000 that were not? It's almost like you have an agenda. With regards to Covax, that's a cop out to pledge to send excess doses. You and I both know that this won't happen until everyone here has been vaccinated, which is what's happened so far. All the while people around the world are dying. Do you think it's right that America has huge quantities of the AZ vaccine sitting doing nothing because the vaccine hasn't been approved yet? This is what this nationalism effectively means. People look out for themselves.

Incidentally, do you think it was EU politicians that prompted Denmark to halt usage of the AZ vaccine or Danish officials?

You may think it a cop out, I think we are using the vaccines quickly and have no spare at the moment. I agree we will almost certainly make sure that everyone in the U.K. is vaccinated before sending excess abroad, and they would be uproar if we didn’t. The 34 million did not belong to the EU, the belonged to whoever they were sent to. This is not some generous gift from the EU, they didn’t want to [Poor language removed] the U.K. and USA etc because then they would really be stuffed on vaccines. The Eu also have huge quantities of AZ that they are not using.
No, I do not believe Eu officials are behind various countries suspending AZ usage. Unfortunately Macron and Merkel have done a good job of rubbishing it that anything now however loosely associated with AZ will get a similar reaction in Europe.

 

[spectateur]

You may think it a cop out, I think we are using the vaccines quickly and have no spare at the moment. I agree we will almost certainly make sure that everyone in the U.K. is vaccinated before sending excess abroad, and they would be uproar if we didn’t. The 34 million did not belong to the EU, the belonged to whoever they were sent to. This is not some generous gift from the EU, they didn’t want to [Poor language removed] the U.K. and USA etc because then they would really be stuffed on vaccines. The Eu also have huge quantities of AZ that they are not using.
No, I do not believe Eu officials are behind various countries suspending AZ usage. Unfortunately Macron and Merkel have done a good job of rubbishing it that anything now however loosely associated with AZ will get a similar reaction in Europe.

Give it a rest about Macron and Merkel and the AZ vaccine. They were following advice from their experts. Not enough data for over 75s to make a scientific decision.
The anglophone media have made it a political issue and you have bought it hook line and sinker.

 

[peteblue]

Give it a rest about Macron and Merkel and the AZ vaccine. They were following advice from their experts. Not enough data for over 75s to make a scientific decision.
The anglophone media have made it a political issue and you have bought it hook line and sinker.

Macron, on the very same day that the EMA approved it for all ages, called it “quasi-ineffective”. So putting any anglophone media aside, what do people think the effect would be on the already vaccine sceptical French and the Pfizer producing Germans. Or are you suggesting it had no effect at all.....

 

[Neiler]

It's hard not to bristle though when the right wing papers are happy to criticise the EU for seemingly blocking the export of vaccines outside of the bloc, when the reality is that they appear to be exporting a bloody lot of them, and quite a bit more than we are. If you read between the lines, it does appear that when the government says they're giving money to COVAX, that means they're giving money rather than vaccines.

34 million doses exported from the EU is a decent sum, including 9 million to the UK. I wonder how many the UK has exported?

[/QUOTE]

 

[peteblue]

[/QUOTE]

Cant argue with their manufacturing capability, just a pity the EU messed Up their own orders......

 

[Neiler]

Cant argue with their manufacturing capability, just a pity the EU messed Up their own orders......
[/QUOTE]

The orders aren’t being fulfilled mate, 75% of AZ hasn’t been delivered to the EU, but exported to other countries including the UK - we clarified this last night, both on the UK signing contracts later then the EU and both contracts having best efforts. Let’s not go around in circles.

UK de facto have an export ban on vaccines, not officially, they are hiding behind AZ skirts, but they have exported 0 vaccines, they are using their manufacturing for themselves and importing as above 80% of their vaccine programme from the EU.

If your fine with the UK using their manufacturing to protect their own citizens first, you can’t have a problem if the EU decided to the same. 0%vs 89%, give and take wise isn’t a very fair equation, or morally but probably more importantly importantly politically is very divisive and short sighted.