Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%
  • Total voters
    1,013
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JEBUS_LIVES said:
Just to say, that GE, unlike a referendum, aren't fought on single issues.
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That’s not quite true tough is it. Leave or Remain is just the same as Labour or Conservative, it’s an outcome. The issues inside of both outcomes are different for different people, for NI it is the border, for others it may be immigration, law, responsibility of National Government, Defence, etc etc.....as you have argued through this thread, people voted because of differing issues, Leave or Remain, Tory or Labour are just outcomes.....
 
peteblue said:
No one wants a USA style NHS, I certainly don’t. I’ve seen the way it operates and I was not impressed. But turning around any organisation starts by getting the top level overall picture, dept by dept, then going down three levels and look and listen to those who actually do the work, where you inevitably get a totally different picture. Then you review the actual systems procedures against what actually happens and then start the who/what/why/when questions. Bearing in mind at all stages that clever turnaround person doesn’t really have a clue how a hospital operates and is merely trying to open up and challenge the people with the real knowledge to bring forward their own improvement. You then redraw the processes for each area, test the overall system by way of detailed review workshops to see where the weaknesses and wasted costs are and finesse it. Then the staffing and skills required can be added together with the overall budgets. Doing it at the NHS level is useless, it needs to be done at two or three hospitals, of different sizes and make up, before rolling out if successful. I would think it would take between 3-5 years per hospital, phased over a total of 8 years. The problem that the NHS has though is that ministers keep changing, governments change, and they all do knee jerk changes which still doesn’t allow them to get to the roots of the issues.......
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Thanks for replying....I can sympathize with the view regarding successive governments trying to introduce massive reorganisation in the service without having a proper long term plan for any proposed restructure; It has happened on a number of occasions. I gather that you are advocating applying a "business model" to individual hospitals rather than the whole service? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? I freely admit that my knowledge of business/financial systems is not as extensive as yours by any stretch, but is it possible to apply such models to what is essentially a public service? Most businesses aim is to make a profit but how does this apply to a structure like the NHS? I know that since PFI came in that a lot of services have been contracted out to private companies...could this be a factor in a reduction in standards? Going off topic here (oops mods) but the issue is an interesting subject perhaps worthy of its own thread, not just the NHS but other public services. Once again thanks for your reply.
 
mellowblue said:
Thanks for replying....I can sympathize with the view regarding successive governments trying to introduce massive reorganisation in the service without having a proper long term plan for any proposed restructure; It has happened on a number of occasions. I gather that you are advocating applying a "business model" to individual hospitals rather than the whole service? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? I freely admit that my knowledge of business/financial systems is not as extensive as yours by any stretch, but is it possible to apply such models to what is essentially a public service? Most businesses aim is to make a profit but how does this apply to a structure like the NHS? I know that since PFI came in that a lot of services have been contracted out to private companies...could this be a factor in a reduction in standards? Going off topic here (oops mods) but the issue is an interesting subject perhaps worthy of its own thread, not just the NHS but other public services. Once again thanks for your reply.
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Yes I did mean to individual hospitals, producing models that could then be rolled out and tailored. A business model from an operations (how we do things) perspective can be applied in any structure that employs people and does work, no matter how large, diverse, geographically spread or complex. The profit bit that you mentioned is just good governance, so instead of a ‘profit’ you have a surplus that you can spend on additional facilities, equipment or whatever. If you could get Hospitals to do their job, deliver for their patients and produce a surplus, then the NHS would just go from strength to strength. Usually when an organisation outsources it’s because someone else can do a job better, cheaper, faster than the organisation can. But there is nothing to stop organisations outsourcing, observe the modus operandi and any improvements then bring it and any surplus back in.....
 
Aqui1a said:
Education/intelligence is always a big factor, but I don't think I've ever said that it's the defining one, that ranks above every other. You're right I don't think it matters who funds them. Why do you think it matters? Unless you want to somehow stop all donations, and have parties funded by taxes alone, then all parties will receive donations big and small from all sorts of people. Do you think Labour doesn't have its own list of wealthy donors? I don't think Johnson has done anything particularly bad while he's been PM, he's legitimately trying to carry out the will of the people by respecting the 2016 ref. result. Both sides have been using dirty tactics, to claim it's only Johnson who's tried to be clever about things is unfair.
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When reading a scientific study, do you think its important who is is funding them before considering the conclusions you are being told?

Education and intelligence are not the same thing

You have to consider Johnsons record pre pm, and also for fairness consider corbyns record pre leader as politicians
 
Aqui1a said:
And I honestly don't know how you can expect that to be the case when they've said that after negotiating a new deal they'll campaign for Remain when they offer a redo referendum. lol
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But they haven't said that. They've said, and I linked you their policy, that

'Labour would campaign for Remain against either No Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs'

I honestly don't think it's that difficult a concept.
 
JEBUS_LIVES said:
But they haven't said that. They've said, and I linked you their policy, that

'Labour would campaign for Remain against either No Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs'

I honestly don't think it's that difficult a concept.
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No they didn’t. They said the would negotiate a deal with the Eu and then campaign to Remain.....
 
peteblue said:
Well, if they really do agree a GE today then the people will decide, quite a few things.....
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I can't see it Pete.

I think Labour dint want a GE because of No Deal worries and they are pooling terribly and the remain parties aren't that bothered by a GE they just want a 2nd referendum.

The problem that Brexiters should think about is that if there is another election and there is still no movement through parliament on a deal...what's left?
 
orly said:
Dec 8 is a Sunday.

How have you managed to even get that wrong.
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Easy memory like a sieve- it's deffo early December not the dates the Lib Dems or the snp or the Tories wanted it's on a Wednesday the day before Boris date as the is some votes of business to clear up on Ireland....LBC......anonuced it early am whe I was dozing .... :D
 
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