Current Affairs EU In or Out

[tsubaki]

There had been what one might call 'inertia' towards the military following the end of WW1. It was not all down to Chamberlain...

Read up on it...

There was, but there was also a considerable amount of innovation that did after all result in a lot of the things you credit Chamberlain for. The difference is that Chamberlain was either in charge of the money, or in charge. He must bear the lions share of the blame for what happened.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

In September 1938 Chamberlain bought us 12 valuable months...

Except that's not true at all. At the time he betrayed the Czech's the combined Czech and French forces outnumbered the Germans both in terms of manpower and equipment. What he did was practically give the Germans one of the more advanced armies on the planet on a plate, and it was partly the capture of Czech equipment that made the German armed forces appear so strong in 39-40 because they certainly weren't in 38.

 

[Aberblue]

Except that's not true at all. At the time he betrayed the Czech's the combined Czech and French forces outnumbered the Germans both in terms of manpower and equipment. What he did was practically give the Germans one of the more advanced armies on the planet on a plate, and it was partly the capture of Czech equipment that made the German armed forces appear so strong in 39-40 because they certainly weren't in 38.

It's a subject on which there's considerable debate among historians and I doubt if there's a definite answer one way or the other.

Anyway, shouldn't this argument be in the "Don't mention the War" thread?

 

[Paris]

Is that Brexit Advert that is on TV all the time advertising against Brexit? So many things that we would normally take for granted that we've got to sort out ourselves.

 

[peteblue]

In 1938, the German military machine was far more advanced than ours and the French. Their airforce had turned their 'civilian passenger aircraft' (Heinkel He 111 & Dornier Do 17) into bombers, that had been the intention all along. We still had biplane fighters with front-line units whereas the Germans had the monoplane Messerschmitt Bf 109, and the emerging Bf 110. Aerially, we would have been slaughtered had war broken out in 1938.

Chamberlain, unwittingly, bought us those 12 months, and by the time of the Dunkirk evacuation in late-May/early-June 1940, Fighter Command had the Spitfires and Hurricanes in sufficient quantities with front-line units, together with the most modern defensive aerial set-up in the world at that time, upon which the Luftwaffe were broken in the following months of the Battle of Britain.

But 12 months earlier...

Apologies for digressing, but Chamberlain should be seen in the above light, even though he was not to know it at the time.

Not sure about that at all - the reason we still had biplane fighters in 1938 because Chamberlain (and Baldwin before him, but Chamberlain was the chancellor) had not put sufficient resources in to rearmament despite what Germany was clearly doing. His policy was to appease Hitler, if necessary against his own Foriegn Secretary's advice and he did not want to antagonize him or upset his own political situation (even though he had a huge majority) by matching the Germans.

Also lets not forget that "buying us those 12 months" also gave the German armed forces the biggest armaments plant in the world at the time, 400 extra (and then) modern tanks, an extra twelve months to build more fighters, bombers and armoured vehicles and to develop their proper use. During the Anchluss, if the Austrians had properly resisted (at least according to Guderian) they would have kicked the Germans out; a year later that army was capable of beating Poland and then turning on the rest of Western Europe. They used that time productively; we did not.

Chamberlain (and Baldwin) deserved the condemnation the men of their time gave them.

Can't agree. In the 12 months, the gap between the two countries with regard to aviation narrowed considerably. Developing of both the Spitifre and the Hurricane was continuing towards fruition, following maiden flights years previously. Ultimately resulting in the situation that I outlined in my previous post.

The Austrian air force was in no way comparable to the strength of the German air force in 1938. To believe they would have successfully resisted against the Luftwaffe is simply not correct. And the consequence of air superiority, as we know, is that the opposing ground forces would have been hammered. I do not believe Austria would have successfully stood up against a German military onslaught.

But you may believe differently...

I think you are broadly agreeing tbh.....

 

[Old Blue 2]

Except that's not true at all. At the time he betrayed the Czech's the combined Czech and French forces outnumbered the Germans both in terms of manpower and equipment. What he did was practically give the Germans one of the more advanced armies on the planet on a plate, and it was partly the capture of Czech equipment that made the German armed forces appear so strong in 39-40 because they certainly weren't in 38.

Read up properly before you post, Bruce...

 

[peteblue]

Except that's not true at all. At the time he betrayed the Czech's the combined Czech and French forces outnumbered the Germans both in terms of manpower and equipment. What he did was practically give the Germans one of the more advanced armies on the planet on a plate, and it was partly the capture of Czech equipment that made the German armed forces appear so strong in 39-40 because they certainly weren't in 38.

I think everyone agrees that Chamberlain was a disaster....and those that suffered, especially Czech’s and Poles, paid the price.....

 

[Old Blue 2]

There was, but there was also a considerable amount of innovation that did after all result in a lot of the things you credit Chamberlain for. The difference is that Chamberlain was either in charge of the money, or in charge. He must bear the lions share of the blame for what happened.

Yeah, I blame him for Watson-Watt & R V Jones. And for Mitchell & Camm.

I bow to your superior knowledge of WW2 aviation and associated matters...

 

[tsubaki]

Yeah, I blame him for Watson-Watt & R V Jones. And for Mitchell & Camm.

I bow to your superior knowledge of WW2 aviation and associated matters...

They would all have still existed if Chamberlain didn't, and they would probably have had a lot more support than they did.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Sorry to interrupt the Chamberlain thread for a moment...but I thought I'd share this absolute car crash from the Government.

 

[peteblue]

Sorry to interrupt the Chamberlain thread for a moment...but I thought I'd share this absolute car crash from the Government.

it doesn’t matter what is put forward, it will be rejected.....usually with the comment ‘we need more detail’......

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

it doesn’t matter what is put forward, it will be rejected.....usually with the comment ‘we need more detail’......

Hardly surprising that you’re fully bought in to the totally transparent game play.

 

[peteblue]

Hardly surprising that you’re fully bought in to the totally transparent game play.

Boris is playing whatever game he’s playing. No one on here has a clue, we just have to see how it plays out. If you think it’s transparent then please enlighten a certain Mr J Corbyn.......

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Read up properly before you post, Bruce...

Ditto.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Boris is playing whatever game he’s playing. No one on here has a clue, we just have to see how it plays out. If you think it’s transparent then please enlighten a certain Mr J Corbyn.......

Corbyn is fully aware of the game being played, hence the reason he didn’t fall into the elephant trap of the election call, before the Benn Act has been adhered to.